TriDot Podcast .209

Success At Any Size: Athena and Clydesdale Triathletes

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Intro: This is the TriDot podcast. TriDot uses your training data and genetic profile, combined with predictive analytics and artificial intelligence to optimize your training, giving you better results in less time with fewer injuries. Our podcast is here to educate, inspire, and entertain. We’ll talk all things triathlon with expert coaches and special guests. Join the conversation and let’s improve together.

Andrew Harley: Welcome to the TriDot podcast. If you are a triathlete over a certain weight, you are categorized at the races as a Clydesdale or Athena athlete. Today we are talking through some training and racing considerations for our Clydesdale and Athena friends and I’ve got the two perfect guests for this conversation. First up is our resident nutritional expert, Dr. Krista Austin. Krista is an exercise physiologist and nutritionist who consulted with the US Olympic Committee and the English Institute of Sport. She has a pHD in exercise physiology and sports nutrition, a Masters degree in exercise physiology and is a certified strength and conditioning specialist. Krista, welcome back to the TriDot podcast!

Dr. Krista Austin: Welcome. Good to be back with you guys.

Andrew: Also joining us for this conversation is TriDot coach Tony Washington. Tony is a United States Air Force Veteran who now works as a corporate pilot. He raced his first triathlon in 1982 and has been a fierce competitor in so many disciplines ever since. Over the years he has had solid results in pool swimming, mountain bike racing, road bike racing, cyclocross, and of course triathlon. He is a TriDot certified coach, an Ironman certified coach, and a TriDot Pool School instructor. He’s one of our core coaches in the Chicago triathlon scene. Coach Tony, welcome to the TriDot podcast!

Tony Washington: Thanks a lot Andrew. This subject really touches home to me and looking forward to having a talk.

Andrew: Well I am Andrew the Average Triathlete, Voice of the People and Captain of the Middle of the Pack. As always we'll roll through our warm up question, settle in for our main set conversation, and then wind things down with the cool down.

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Warm up theme: Time to warm up! Let’s get moving.

Andrew: We’ve talked on the podcast many, many times about the role that nutrition plays in helping our body recover after a training session. Dr. Austin has been on many of those conversations. So what I want to learn today from the TriDot audience is, what is your go-to recovery snack or meal after a training session? So Coach Tony, what is your go-to snack to have after you do a workout?

Tony: For me especially after long rides, I love having chocolate milk.

Andrew: Yeah. Yes!

Tony: Just like the commercial. So yeah. Exactly. It’s good for you right? Costco actually sells these boxes of 30-pack of chocolate milk that don’t have to be refrigerated so you can throw them on the shelf and when you’re ready for them you throw them in your cooler. When we go for a long ride we’ll take all of our drinks and put them in a little cooler and then nice cold chocolate milk are waiting for you in the car when you get done.

Andrew: Yeah. Look at you. Hey, look at that. Dr. Austin, what is this answer for you? What’s your personal go-to recovery snack?

Dr. Austin: Well I’m going to just go back to my principles of nutrition. So I do about 60 to 90 minutes of training a day and just given the amount of recovery time that I have in between sessions, oftentimes it’s just my next meal because you’re not going to have massive glycogen depletion. I sweat a lot so I focus a lot on rehydration. So always kind of looking to make sure I’m prepared to sweat again the next day because for me I would say hydration impacts most of the rest of my day in terms of recovery. So I don’t want to fall asleep at the computer and it’s really important for cognition. So you’ll see me lean on something like that until I get to the next meal. It’s just not enough to really say hey you need to go running for a recovery snack. Every once in a while I do get into these longer sessions these days and I will tell you that I go running for something that’s old and familiar and that just sits really easy. Now that will change typically on the day and so the question is once I’m finished, what do I feel like grabbing. Now that probably sounds a little haphazard, but when it’s so few and far between you really can do that.

Andrew: Sure.

Dr. Austin: I guess I’m showing everyone what it’s like to have a more lax schedule or intermittent prolonged schedules, but I think that’s good for everyone to realize is that it doesn’t have to be so rigid. It’s great when we have five hour rides and we need certain recovery snacks and what have you to help refuel the body, that’s important. Tony did something like that, but if you’re doing just 60 to 90 minutes a day I think this applies to a lot of TriDot athletes because I know you guys like those short, sweet, fast turnover type sessions, you might have to wait until that next meal because you might not be doing something until the next day. So it’s all about energy balance for us and really hydration is going to be your biggest recovery factor if you’re like me and you just sweat a lot. You let everyone know next to you that you’re having a great session and I really encourage you to rehydrate after those ones. But know that it may be your next meal before you really need something.

Andrew: Yeah so sweat as the sign of a great session. I like that. That’s fun. I definitely have many great sessions by that metric. Living in Texas almost always without fail when I go do a workout and I’m done with that workout I pop an extra Precision Fuel and Hydration electrolyte tab in a bottle of water and rehydrating after a workout definitely helps me bounce back quicker, feel better. So yeah, that’s a big part of it for me. I typically wait for that next meal. When I am in a pinch or if I’m just in between meals or if I’m kind of having a light lunch on purpose or something and I know it’s going to be a while until that next meal, I will do a recovery smoothie. Usually almond milk, chocolate protein powder, some nuts, and a banana in there. Pretty simple. Or a quick go-to for me is the Oikos vanilla Greek yogurt with a little bit of honey and some chocolate granola that’s also a big kind of post workout snack for me if I’m not going to have a meal in the next couple hours after a session. I’m curious to see what the TriDot audience has to say on this. I know you guys and gals have all sorts of things that you like to snack on to get that recovery nutrition after a session. So let us know in the comments what that go-to snack or meal is for you. Make sure you’re a part of the I AM TriDot Facebook group and find the post asking you this question so we can all get ideas from each other. Can’t wait to see what you have to say.

Main set theme: On to the main set. Going in 3…2…1…

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Andrew: Triathletes come in all sorts of shapes and sizes and today on the podcast we are taking care of our bigger triathletes. Now I don’t mean bigger as a negative thing here. You can be bigger in your frame. You can be bigger in your muscle mass. You can be bigger because you carry a little bit of extra fat. You can be bigger because you’re tall. Whatever it is that puts you in the Clydesdale or Athena classification of triathletes, we want to equip you with the knowledge to have a successful tri journey and let’s start here today guys. Just with a simple definition of these categories, Clydesdale and Athena. Coach Tony, this is a weight based thing to my knowledge. What weight places our athletes in these categories and is this the same for every organization or does it differ based on whether you’re doing a PTO race or an Ironman race or a different brand? Kind of break it down for us.

Tony: Well, USAT puts it at for men 220 pounds and for ladies 165 pounds. But local races might have other ones. I know USA Cycling uses a little something different, 210 pounds, I don’t remember what it is, I think 155 for ladies back when I was doing a lot of cycling racing. So yeah, it is based on weight, but just because you’re big and beautiful doesn’t mean…you know, there’s nothing bad about it. It’s just a great place to race.

Andrew: Now, Tony, you are a Clydesdale athlete. Is that correct?

Tony: I have stopped putting myself in Clydesdale as I’ve drifted below 220. I’m trying to get down to my race weight here for California and I’m actually dangerously close to 200 right now.

Andrew: Wow. Okay and for those of you who have not seen or met Coach Tony Washington in person, he is very tall. He is a very tall guy. Much taller than me and that’s where that 200 pounds comes from is just that tall, tall, tall frame. So Tony, I’m curious at the races how this works. I am 5 foot 7. I am 140 pounds when I’m fit. I’m 160 pounds right now, not super fit. I have no problem revealing those numbers on the podcast, I can be public with that. It is what it is. I am not a Clydesdale athlete personally so I’m just curious how this works when you are a Clydesdale or Athena. Do you have to register and let the race producer know, oh this is the weight I am so I can race in this classification or is it something that the race picks up on in like your USAT profile? How does this work at the races?

Tony: Yeah at the races it depends. Some races don’t have Clydesdale and Athena categories.

Andrew: Okay.

Tony: But a lot of places do. Like there's a Clyde and Athena category at nationals. So you just kind of look at the registration. If that’s a spot available in the registration, click on that and that puts you in a category. So you’re kind of mixed in with other age groups, but it all puts you in the same category. It kind of seems about 50/50 for races. Bigger races have them, but some smaller races may not have them if say it’s only 200 people in a race it might not have a Clydesdale or Athena class.

Andrew: Now when you check that box and you say, okay, I do want to race in this classification, are you exclusively racing against other Clydesdale and Athena athletes or are you also eligible for age group awards at the same time?

Tony: No, you are in Clydesdale only.

Andrew: Okay, so you’re just racing everybody above that weight that’s checked that box…

Tony: Exactly.

Andrew: …regardless of age.

Tony: Yep, yep, exactly.

Andrew: Okay, no, super helpful to get clarity on that. I have certainly trained and raced with athletes in these categories and I’ve heard some of them they express enthusiasm at the opportunity to be on the podium as a Clydesdale or Athena. They get really jazzed like, oh, I’m going to try to win this division or be on the podium in this division. Maybe I have no shot at a podium in my age group, but I do have a shot at a podium as a Clydesdale or Athena. They’ve kind of embraced being in this category and I’ve heard others kind of lament that this is even a thing, you know grouping athletes over a certain weight together. For some folks that can be fine. For some folks that kind of can get in your head. Krista, Tony, what are your feelings on this category even existing and what do you hear from athletes who are in this size category? Dr. Austin, I’ll start with you.

Dr. Austin: Yeah, I think first and foremost the perspective of the athlete is what’s critical and the question is do they choose to compete in that category. You can always compete in a race and never declare it. So typically people are declaring it for a reason. From a holistic perspective, I really don’t care for the category existing, but everyone kind of knows my perspective on ignoring weight and just looking at performance. But you know, you have to go back to what’s your purpose for racing. It’s about being your best at all times regardless of age, weight, race, etcetera. So that’s just kind of something you sit on. I don’t ever really bring it up to athletes and ask or highlight it pretty much because they’re usually coming to me because they don’t want to sit at the weight that they’re currently at. They want to improve body composition. They want to improve race performance. So when that’s why they’re coming to someone like me we don’t really focus on the category, but I have had individuals who said this is the class I’m racing in or they definitely qualify for it, but I have never pushed it that way.

Andrew: Yeah and based on our previous conversations on the podcast, I thought that’s the way you would lean of not loving that that category is a thing, but yeah. I love that kind of perspective on it’s kind of up to the athlete, right? They can opt out of that and not even associate themselves with it. Coach Tony, as you have had seasons of your life where you were over that weight and you’ve coached athletes that are in that case, what’s your general feeling and the buzz you hear from athletes on these classifications.

Tony: Well, personally I love it. I want as many people racing as possible and for some folks that might be holding them back. But like hey I can be included in this group and a bunch of people that look like me can race together. You know, they’re in their own wave or something for places that still have wave starts and it’s a fun group back there and it’s a blast. I just want to have everybody who is interested in the sport love the sport and include as many people as we can and for some folks it’s a pretty big psychological challenge for folks. I think it helps people include them in our crazy old sport. .

Andrew: There’s an episode, it is called “Body Weight, Performance, and Triathlon” and it was Dr. Krista Austin and Taryn Richardson, our friend from the Triathlon Nutrition Academy and we were kicking around just the concept of body weight and triathlon and Dr. Austin you very passionately shared just your perspective on chasing performance and not chasing a certain body composition or a certain weight. So Dr. Austin, where do you think that one ranks in terms of all time downloads? Shot in the dark. Just take a guess. Where do you think that one is?

Dr. Austin: Top 25%.

Andrew: It is #3 all time. I highly encourage anybody listening to this conversation, if you have not heard that episode, it’s a great one to go hand in hand with this one. But moving us on in this episode, Dr. Austin, just taking that principle of chasing fitness and not chasing a certain weight, how would you apply that principle specifically to a Clydesdale or Athena athlete?

Dr. Austin: You know, I guess it just goes back to instances where I’ve worked with athletes who have essentially gained 20 pounds…

Andrew: Wow.

Dr. Austin: …and then we still went just as fast. So when people work with me what they’ll find out is we’ll say okay, you maybe are Clydesdale or an Athena and you want to compete underneath that category, but what we try to do is just take that component out and say “how fast can we get?” I just think that overall people’s perception in endurance sport with regard to weight and its relevance is just skewed. So I guess from my perspective of over 25 years of working in that industry, I would just say I would love to see organizations like USA Triathlon, USA Track and Field, really just help get a message out and take more of a stand that says hey, you know what? You can be just as fast as long as you train to be that fast. I would just say don’t judge the cover too quickly. Give it time. Maybe that weight does work for you. Maybe it is better for long term health and performance. But it’s just perspective that sometimes we don’t understand that even putting on 20 pounds we can get just as fast. So don’t be shy if you are that Athena or that Clydesdale and you’re 20 pounds heavier than the guy or gal standing next to you. Say, “Uh, I kind of heard on that podcast that we can possibly get just as fast. We’ve just got to train for it.”

Andrew: I love that that’s your perspective Dr. Austin. I love that we teach that on our podcast because I do think chasing health and chasing fitness is far more important than chasing a certain look that we associate with endurance sports because that’s not always the case that we have to have that. A question I do want to ask. So if there are athletes listening who are Clydesdale or Athena and they know they’re in that category because for health reasons should lose a couple pounds, as endurance athletes it’s a tricky thing to properly fuel our training and racing, but still do what we need to do with our fuel intake to lose some pounds. So for our folks who are out there listening who are in this category, they do want to lose a little bit of weight, what can they do to do that in a healthy way while still being a triathlete and fueling properly?

Dr. Austin: Start first and foremost with anything that’s behavioral that you kind of know okay this is some low hanging fruit. That’s usually the easiest way to start to lose it without ever counting a calorie or gram or what have you. You know, it’s something that even I myself do when I know, okay I’ve strayed and when I stray it’s kind of like what can I do to reign it back in and all of a sudden it does come back to focus and I don’t count anything, right? Barely do anything, just kind of shift my windows of fueling, make some smarter choices that I know maybe I wasn’t making smart choices. But then once you do get past that point, it does come back to where can you put these small energy deficits in through a periodized training program where you can tolerate the deficit and still accomplish the training goals. Sometimes that involves just switching up the type of foods you’re fueling with. Maybe increase some protein and fiber intake so you feel full. Timing nutrient ingestion so that the muscle can recover as best possible and then just making sure that once you’re into the heat of the racing season that we pull back on that if there’s still more to lose.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a great point.

Dr. Austin: Leave it for the next go. So it’s not complicated, but oftentimes people do complicate it because they’re looking for that magic blue pill.

Andrew: Yeah, I definitely know my behavioral things that I get loosey goosey on and it's like, “Okay, let’s tighten this back up a little bit.” And I’m sure everybody listening kind of has those things. So I love the concept of starting there and then I also love the other thing you said that I want to highlight for people is when you’re in your race season, you have an A race coming up, that’s not the time to worry about losing weight. That’s the time to worry about fueling properly for the efforts you have coming up and then your next off season, your next lul in between races okay, well then let’s visit that. So really, really great stuff there as always Dr. Austin.  

So Tony, I want to talk about gear for just a little bit. When you are a Clydesdale or Athena athlete, sometimes you’re still a relatively normal size and you fit on regular sized bikes and regular shoes. Sometimes you have some special considerations to be made because you are a Clydesdale or Athena athlete. Some body types it is easy to find a good fit in all the things in our sports, but some folks just can’t do it as easily. So let’s just kind of cruise through swim, bike, and run and let’s talk about some of the tricks to getting the right items if you do have a harder to fit body type. And you are that way because you are tall. Some people are that way just because they are rounder in certain places. Lots of different body types can struggle to find a good fit in the things in our sport. So when it comes to the swim, I think the main one here is wetsuits and swim skins and please correct me if there’s something else people have problems fitting. For athletes that struggle to find a good fit here, Tony, what wisdom do you have to share?

Tony: Wetsuits you can search on the wetsuits in their sizing guide. If you look at let’s say Roka has a 6 foot 5 and 230 it’s going to say get the extra long. I actually wear an extra large tall and it’s still too short. Sailfish has one, you put your height and weight in and it just kind of pops up what size they recommend. I had plugged it in on theirs a couple days ago and it didn’t seem to have a top end. A good wetsuit is going to be very flexible. It’s just going to be– like all wetsuits it’s going to take 15 minutes to put on properly, get that on nice and tight in the right spots and then it will come off in 30 seconds when you’re out of the water. So wetsuits can be pretty particular. Roka seems to fit me just okay for now. I have yet to try on the new Sailfish. It looks like it’s pretty awesome. Swim skins are tight though.

Andrew: Yeah.

Tony: They are made to keep you very trim and I have an extra large tall I believe and it is very form fitting let’s say. It keeps you all in the right spot. That’s it’s point is to help connect your shoulders and hips and then keep your body nice and taught and squeeze you into the little tube.

Andrew: Yeah.

Tony: So that might be something you want to try to have on and have a great company that has a great return policy. All of the premier places have a great return policy concerning fit because there’s not a lot of tri places anymore where we can try things on and try on three different kinds of wetsuits in a place in a real shop or brick and mortar place. A lot of online places offer a great return policy if this doesn’t fit, send me the correct size. Yeah, so take out those sizing guides for name your brand and just remember that they’re super flexible. I know a lot of people complain about how they fit in the shoulders and they make my shoulders– Typically it’s because you’re not pulling them up high enough.

Andrew: Yeah.

Tony: You know, when you hold the wetsuit, it’s pretty floppy. That little floppyness is not holding you back. You just need to make sure it’s fitting you properly. So it’s pretty flexible and they make them in a lot of really big sizes. There’s quad XLs out there for some of our super Clydes that I’ve seen and they work fantastic.

Andrew: Yep. All great stuff there and you have the firsthand knowledge of placing those orders and getting the stuff in. I’ve loved my Sailfish wetsuit. I’m getting along great in it. I do want to say the wetsuit I had before this one was a brand called Desoto Sport based out of San Diego, California and they have a really unique product that is a two piece triathlon wetsuit. Basically, the legs kind of fit like cycling bibs where they have a very thin layer of neoprene that goes up over your shoulders and it connects to the legs and then you pull on the top that has the arms and covers the rest of your torso. That two piece system is really, really great if you’re somebody who finds, I’m a medium up top and I’m a large on the bottom or vice versa. That’s a great brand for you to look at that has a really unique product for some of our just unconventional body type folks out there. Good wisdom there Tony.

On to the bike. Athletes who struggle here are probably folks like yourself who are a wee bit taller than the rest of us. Probably some folks who are a wee bit shorter than the rest of us as well, but that’s a different story for a different day. What do our taller athletes need to know about bike fit and bike buying?

Tony: Whenever a new bike comes out, I send them by bottom bracket to top of seat measurement and they’re astounded when I tell them it’s 93 cm. Trek, Cannondale, Specialized, they don’t make bikes big enough for me. So I currently have a Canyon– the ex-CEO of Canyon is 6 foot 8– so I own an extra large Canyon. My old bike was a Cervelo. It fit very well, but the modern ones don’t fit; the seat doesn’t go high enough.

Andrew: Okay.

Tony: And I have a big issue with having that seat. The people on the other end of the spectrum, like you mentioned, having a much smaller frame; if you’re below about 5 feet tall it’s hard to fit also. So take those measurements from your existing bike and then look at the sizing or geometry that’s available on websites. There’s a ton of great resources including the brands and see what fits. Another thing to consider about bikes is for your tire size, you know, the bigger the better. The trend is definitely having bigger tires and that allows you to run lesser pressures. If you’re a bigger person, you’re going to need a lot of pressure in your tire.

Andrew: Yeah, great point.

Tony: Even a 28 or like a 32 tire you’ll still have that. It’s been mentioned before SILCA Tire Pressure Calculator is a fantastic tool to compute that. I’m down to, on my cyclocross bike on a 32 tire, down to like 60 PSI which is record low for me. It’s really nice to have something really smooth riding back there.

Andrew: That’s in the ballpark of what I can usually run being 150-ish pounds.

Tony: So yeah, bike issues I’ve been battling that all my life. I have a double extra large mountain bike. I have a 64 cm cyclocross bike and anybody who ever sees me pushing my bike around, they know that the seat can be taller than some people.

Andrew: No, really good point about the tire pressure. I mean, something that wasn’t even on my radar to ask about as we talked about bikes just because I kind of know my personal number and I forget that that number is different based on the weight you carry onto the bike. I think people forget, we see the online ads for bikes or we see what our favorite pro rider is riding and we’re like, “Oh, man. I really want a Trek or I want a Dimond or I want a this or want a that.” That bike just might not be super friendly to your geometry.

Tony: Right.

Andrew: So go find a fitter. Have them take a look at you. Have them take a look at your flexibility and the position you need to be in and they can help you kind of narrow down what bikes might be a good candidate for your physiology. So good stuff there Tony.

The third sport is out onto the run. Some of the run shoe review channels that I follow– I’m a run shoe nerd. I love just looking at new run shoes and I probably own too many of them and it’s a problem, but usually models with a bit more cushion or perhaps better durability, more tread on the bottom, are the ones that my favorite run shoe reviewers will recommend for bigger, heavier athletes. Tony, do you find that that’s something that’s true for the Clydesdale and Athena athletes you work with or does it just kind of vary athlete to athlete? Is there anything to consider when it comes to our running shoes as a Clydesdale or Athena?

Tony: Well, I definitely agree. One of the, I think the really good things have come out with the new carbon super shoes, is the foam in those super shoes is very soft to help make that carbon flex appropriately to make you super fast. But that foam is also going to protect you and make your training and your racing much more comfortable. So that foam is super important and I think it’s been really valuable for me and a lot of folks. Now one of the things that is a corollary to that is some of those shoes have a 300 mile–

Andrew: Yeah that’s true.

Tony: They last 300 miles. That’s great if you’re a little Kenyan, 123 pound person. If you’re a 6 foot 5, 220 pound guy who clomps around really poorly– you’ve seen me run– I am really lucky to get a good month out of a pair of shoes sometimes.

Andrew: Wow.

Tony: It’s pretty bad. I usually go too far, but they do not last very well. They’ve gotten better as my run form has improved, but I always have at the end of the year a garbage bag of shoes to take to the shoe store for donation back. They look perfect, but they are out for me.

Andrew: Yeah and that’s also probably a good note is that if you’re carrying around more weight, you’re wearing through that foam a little bit faster and be on the lookout for signs that your shoes are nearing the end of their life. You might feel it in your joints. You might just feel a little bit less of a response from them as you go through your stride and just kind of keep track of how many miles are on your shoes to make sure you’re protecting your joints, protecting your feet, protecting your body by being in shoes that are appropriate to you. Again, I’m barely 5 foot 7. I’m probably 5 foot 6.999999 to be honest, but my step dad is 6 foot 2 and my step dad is in the sport. He’s running. He’s cycling. He’s swimming. He loves triathlon. Yeah. He goes through shoes a heck of a lot faster than I do and durability for me on shoes is not a massive factor, but for my dad that is a huge factor. There’s certain brands he’s found that “Oh man, I like running in this model, but it’s only going to last me a month whereas that model I like almost as much, but it’s going to last me three months. Okay, let’s get that one.”

Tony: Yep.

Andrew: He’s kind of learned that over the years and has conversations with me. So really, really good point there. Tony, what are you running in personally right now? What are your go-to shoes?

Tony: I like Hoka SpeedGoats. I do a lot of trail running around.

Andrew: I was going to say that’s a trail shoe. Yeah, that’s their trail model.

Tony: Yeah, it’s awesome. We are surrounded by some great trail shoes and then come winter time, I know it’s something you don’t have to deal with is running in the snow and ice. They are like having some kind of super spikes on. They are fantastic. Of course I just jinxed myself. I have not fallen while using them. Then I am currently racing in their CarbonX 3 I believe is their new race shoe and they are super springy and foamy and it’s one of the, like I said, one of the great byproducts of that very great responsive soft cushion really takes the blow.

Andrew: And one more thing I’ll say about shoes– again, shoe nerd here. But we had a podcast. One of my favorite channels to follow is a group called Doctors of Running and they review run shoes. They write about run shoes from the perspective of doctors who also like running. They’re very academic. In their reviews of run shoes they talk to you about the different features of a shoe and how it makes your foot do certain things. They came on our podcast and we had a really, really great discussion and part of that discussion we were talking about carbon plates in shoes because we all think that the carbon plate in a shoe is there to help us spring forward and run faster. More often than not, the carbon plate in a shoe is just to help that soft foam you’re talking about– these brands are putting so much soft foam in these shoes these days that that foam would be a worthless mush without a stabilizing carbon plate in there. So the carbon plate is there to help the shoe do its job and not just be a mushy mess with all that soft foam. So you’re starting to see these brands, the race shoes of course have carbon plates in them, but you’re starting to see a lot of these brands put carbon plates in some of their squishier training shoes. So just kind of be on the lookout for what those options are if that appeals to you as a heavier runner.

Fueling properly is our next topic here. So kind of going from Krista to Tony to Krista to Tony today as we talk about our bigger athletes. But fueling properly at the races is crucial no matter what size you are. The more body you have, the more body you have to fuel. So Krista, Tony, on race day what considerations for fueling and hydrating do our bigger athletes need to be aware of?

Dr. Austin: So the bottom line is that you can only burn, or we call it oxidize, a certain amount of carbohydrate per minute. At the end of the day no matter what size you are there’s only so much we can do. However, what you might take into consideration if you are an Athena or Clydesdale athlete is that the ability to get your carbohydrate through your gastrointestinal system may be dependent on how much you’re heating up. How much are you sweating and dehydrating? So typically I try to say okay, how do you feel on these carbs and might use a high molecular weight carbohydrate with them just because it gets out of the stomach that much faster and easier and it’s not so dependent on hydration status. The other thing you want to try to emphasize is how well hydrated are you staying? It may be even more crucial for you to get the sodium and fluids in just to try to help keep core body temperature down to help facilitate fueling in racing and training than it even is the carbohydrate I guess you could say. So you can’t burn any more than the little person that’s like 5 foot and 100 pounds, but you do sweat more probably. So try to keep that in mind. I’ve had a 5 footer…

Andrew: Wow.

Dr. Austin: …take in just as much as a 6 foot 5 person. So yeah. Sometimes their secret to success is that they can get all that down to keep them churning along at such a high rate to be honest. We’ve kind of thought that’s kind of the secret to their success.

Andrew: Okay.

Dr. Austin: But they just don’t sweat as much. They’re smaller. So that’s usually the biggest difference in terms of fueling strategies.

Andrew: Tony, does that track just with your personal experience as a taller athlete in how you fuel on race day?

Tony: Yeah definitely. You know, you have a different kind of body mass to surface area for your skin as you’re trying to deal with the heat of a race. You know we have a big person or heavier person and a relatively small skin area. You can imagine a 100 pound person versus me, their weight to skin area ratio is much greater than mine so I have less ability to deal with the heat kind of thing and like Dr. Austin mentioned, having the gastric emptying can be an impact on how you’re going to be processing these calories. So yeah. It’s shedding some of that weight– Shedding some of that heat, pardon me, can be limiting for sure.

Dr. Austin: And just remember too that weight loss in a race is relative, right? So if you are 220 pounds, losing 1% is 2.2 pounds. Losing 2% is 4.4 pounds whereas if you’re 100 pounds…

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Austin: …that’s a completely different story. That’s a pound and then two pounds and then like you’re done before you start to compromise performance. So just keep that in mind that you may have to do what you can when you race because getting that amount of fluid into your body just is not necessarily possible. I mean, I can tell you just by working with more so like NFL and NHL athletes, they’re some big guys. Some at one point said what’s with these hydration recommendations? We can’t even get back in them what they’re losing in training because it was just such a gain to try and do it and you can’t do it to be really honest.

Andrew: Like drinking that much while you’re being active, yeah it can be tough. I can imagine.

Dr. Austin: Yeah, because they’re losing 10 to 12 pounds a session.

Tony: Right.

Dr. Austin: And they’re like, “hey, we can’t do this.” Some of them were sweating a lot at night when they were trying to push really high levels of fluid just because their body temperature stays higher and they’re waking up at night with just like sweat. Like their bed sheets were kind of drenched a little bit because their fluid intake was allowing them to dissipate the heat from training, but in doing so it was like they were sweating all through the night. I don’t know if you’ve ever experienced that Tony.

Tony: Oh yeah.

Dr. Austin: But they brought it to the strength coach’s attention. The strength coach was like, “What is going on?” and I said “Well, we’re trying to hydrate them properly, but then we’re kind of on the back end causing this effect.”

Andrew: So going kind of from race fueling to day to day fueling because that’s also a very important consideration to be successful in your training. You’ve got to fuel your days correctly. Is it as simple as the bigger you are the more calories you need throughout the day or are there kind of some extra considerations or nuances that our folks of a certain size can implement?

Dr. Austin: You know, some people get really lucky I guess you could say and they tend to just eat based on intuition and they’ll stay continuously eating throughout the day or they can handle larger amounts of food at any given time. But if you work with most bigger athletes they will tell you that they get so full at times that they can’t get everything in so they have to try to strategize how they’re going to do it. That’s been probably the biggest thing I’ve noticed over time is that they may drop weight when you don’t want them to drop weight just because they feel full and so they stop eating. So try to figure out what is that scenario or what are the tricks to get all the calories in them and then really it’s like everybody else to be honest. If they need to lose weight they may get a little bit hungrier than other people easier. So how do you help them feel full throughout the day so that they don’t go and ravage the cupboards. So it kind of sits on both ends I feel like for them. Then there’s the health consequences sometimes because they do take in all these calories. You may have that much more protein intake. You might have that much more fat intake which will impact their colesterol. It may impact kidney function. It might impact blood glucose levels. So you have to just kind of stay cognizant that you’re not impacting their health in any way. I know I had an offensive lineman one time that came in and he said “Why are you taking my blood pressure?” and I said “Well, I need to know the amount of sodium to put in your diet just based off of what we’re getting ready to feed you guys.”

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Austin: Because for him, he needed something different than every other guy because he had the high blood pressure due to relatively normative sodium intake for every other football player that was there. So you have to stay cognizant of those factors in the population that you’re working with. So it’s important for everyone, but probably more of an area we hit with people who are on the bigger size regardless of whether it’s height, weight based. So just something to be cognizant of.

Andrew: Now, Dr. Austin, for our audience who are listening who can clearly tell, “oh my goodness, this person who is a specialist in this field knows so much more than I do.” There’s definitely some things I’m learning today that I can implement on my own. But some people probably just want that extra help of saying, oh man, to get this right, to kind of learn how I need to fuel myself day to day for the size that I am, what is your recommendation for getting plugged in with a nutritionist or somebody who is a specialist in your field to kind of help you get this right to properly fuel your training and racing and not put yourself or your health at jeopardy?

Dr. Austin: Well, first off, these days you can invest in yourself and educate yourself before you even step to the plate to give someone a ring. So you guys know my favorite app that's out there, the nutritional app, Cronometer. It gives you tons of detailed information and a lot of that can actually speak to your fat intake, omega 3s, omega 6, saturated fats, things of that nature. So first and foremost, the investment has to start from your side in educating yourself. Then secondly, you want to turn around and say okay, who has some experience with these type athletes? I would just say, you know, whoever you’re reaching out to, make sure they have some expertise when you message them. You don’t have to sign up for the session right away. You’re fully entitled to send them an email and say here is my background. Here’s my story. Do you feel like you can help me? Then also do the old Google, right? Like “sport nutrition and Clydesdale athlete” or “Athena athlete” and see if any specialists just pop up because sometimes they’ll have it advertised. But again, go back to that step of messaging them and saying, “Hey, how much experience do you have in this area?” I would tell you that if you’ve got a really– I don’t want to use the term “older,” but it is true that we’re older– practitioner, more than likely we have seen people over the years of a wide variety of height, weight, sizes, functionality, and sport. So typically the more experienced they are, the more likely they can bring something to the table for you.

Andrew: So endurance sports by default, they can be rough on our joints, they can be rough on our bones, our connective tissue no matter what size you are. But the more weight you are carrying, the more weight your frame has to support through every single stroke and step. So Dr. Austin, what strength training and injury prevention measures do our Clydesdale and Athena athletes need to be taking to stay healthy?

Dr. Austin: Everyone needs to strength train by my book, right? Everyone needs to do mobility work and really I think what I tie it back to is whether or not they are trying to lose weight and facilitate fat loss and maintain current muscle mass. We have to take those factors into consideration. What you find with a lot of people who start off in the Clydesdale or Athena categories, they don’t want more mass or at least that’s been my experience. They say “Well, how can I at least just do something to maintain the muscle mass that I have?” So we start with the nutritional side and make sure it’s set up to help minimize any type of compromise and the loss of muscle mass as they begin to train. Then we start working towards body weight exercises and then basic levels of resistance. Then typically it’s like how is your body responding to this? Are we able to start loading the bar? Is it a good response or a bad response? Sometimes they just say “I don’t like how bulky it’s making me.” Then I try to say okay, let’s back off then and let’s go back to functional training for triathlon. That’s my personal approach. As long as they can maintain the flexibility, the mobility, and get the range of motion out of the joints so they can produce the force, I’m good with it. Then you work towards whatever they’re trying to do with that weight. So you have to be pretty flexible in how you design it for them and that’s really anyone to be honest. They might get picky with you even if they’re like my height at 5 foot 6 and they say “Hey I don’t want my quads any bigger.” I don’t have joint mobility here or there. I don’t think it really differs, but you might find that a Clydesdale or Athena athlete, especially if they’re tall, will have certain requirements. So maybe Tony can speak to this. Where you are tall, like back squatting might not be your most favorite thing to do or deadlifting. So maybe you move more so to kettlebell or dumbbell type exercises just because it’s that much more beneficial. You can be that much more explosive with it. So you have to ask them, how comfortable are you doing this. So I don’t know Tony. What do you think?

Tony: I agree 100%. I blame my poor squatting technique and bench pressing on my long femurs just like Andrew Starykowicz. So it’s definitely a thing. It’s definitely– physics is hard to overcome. Back when I used to lift a lot, I could bench press a house back in the day and squat a camel.

Andrew: Those are impressive metrics there Tony.

Tony: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. I was in Saudi Arabia working out in an Army tent for a while. But it was definitely hard. These days I don’t do a lot of very heavy weights. I do a lot more repetitions, but there are definitely exercises I shy away from. Pure squats, I like them for a whole body workout perspective, but I don’t do a ton of massive weight anymore. That 150% that Dr. Austin had mentioned for me that’s 360 pounds, that’s a pretty heavy squat.

Andrew: Yeah.

Tony: I used to be able to do that pretty easily. Not anymore. I can still deadlift because my arms are long enough to reach down to the ground. But somebody with shorter arms may have a harder time. But I definitely do a lot more body weight stuff keeping my long limbs as close to me as possible just to kind of relieve some of that stress that they have overall.

Andrew: So as a pretty experienced triathlon coach, I mean, you’ve worked with a lot of different athletes over the years, is there anything as we’re talking about nutrition and we’re talking about strength– I mean the things we’re talking about today every athlete needs to be hearing about and needs to be aware of, needs to be working on, needs to be working with professionals on if they can if they can afford it. Is there anything as a coach when you’re working with an athlete who is Clydesdale or Athena, is there anything you do differently or talk differently about or make sure you have them consider that might be different from an athlete who is a little bit lighter?

Tony: Definitely. It’s often early in their triathlon journey and we talk about going slow. We’re just starting getting into this and we go slow. We want to– you know it takes forever for all your connective tissue to get strong. Muscles can get strong, you can build endurance quickly, but your connective tissue especially if you’re a bigger person can be really strained for this new activity of swim, bike, and run they might be doing. So we go slow. We start out and we kind of trickle into our workouts and we do a lot of zone 2 stuff. I do a lot of strength stuff just to kind of get everybody strong with stability, mobility, and then strength to get them ready for their workouts. We take our time. We recognize we’re going to have a– we build a long term, patient plan so that we go slow. We do not want to hurt ourselves. We want some good consistency and take our time. For some folks they love to look at the scale. The scale is like the worst indicator of performance ever. I cannot help weighing a lot because I’m a tall, big person. So I got down to 193 a few years ago and I looked like a skeleton. It was really bad. It was really, really bad. So I’m at a much more comfy weight and in that I was horrible. That was my worst season in years.

Andrew: I was about to say that. Dr. Austin has made that point before. She’s had clients come to her wondering why they are struggling with performance and hey, let's put on five or ten healthy pounds and they become a stronger athlete for it. So yeah, that totally tracks.

Tony: Definitely, definitely.

Andrew: I know just over the years you’ve coached some athletes who are smaller, some athletes who are mediumer, some athletes who are larger. Tony, can you leave us just with a story today of maybe a TriDot athlete that you worked with who came to you as a bigger athlete needing some special coaching, some special encouragement, maybe had some specific problems they were struggling with and how did you find success with that athlete working together?

Tony: Well, we gelled really well because believe it or not he’s 2 inches taller than me and had about 50 pounds on me. So we started slow and we found a bike even bigger than mine for him to fit on and we started slow. We got strong and we took our time and we set small goals and some long term goals and were patient. We just did our workouts really well. We got very patient with zone 2 runs. Those were extremely difficult. They weren’t fit at the beginning so their zone 2 heart rate was like 124 or something. So that’s very difficult to maintain while running. It started out as almost 16 minute pace which is walking almost the whole mile kind of thing. So we finally got it there and then they started really getting encouraged by their improvement because TriDot works. It works for everybody. It works for young and old, big and tall. It was fantastic over the years in getting strong and getting strong. They drifted in and out over the last couple of years of being a pure cyclist that went from something they didn’t really like at all to that was their #1 sport…

Andrew: Wow.

Tony: …as they were really liking. Now they do time trials and criteriums. Criteriums are great short sprinting races.

Andrew: Oh boy. Oh yeah.

Tony: It turns out if you’re a giant, super strong person, it works out really great. You are creating a giant hole behind you for people to draft behind you which isn’t effective, but he is so strong that he’s usually come off the final corner and sprinting away from people. He does some flat time trials because he’s a giant, very strong person and it’s been really, really effective. He did Indian Wells, was it two years ago? Very, very cold swim, but because he’s a bigger person it didn’t affect him as much and a relatively flat and thankfully that day a relatively cooler day and actually had a fantastic race. So it’s really, really refreshing. Then as I tell all my folks in the off season enjoy your fitness and do something really fun. He did an ultra and is super enjoying the fitness. Trying to get him back into triathlon, he’s still a TriDot athlete. Now that RunDot is really embracing a lot of the endurance and ultra running we’ve been able to make that work. I saw him in the pool a couple of days ago on Strava. So I know he’s back. We will find another triathlon for him.

Andrew: Yeah. What I love about that story Tony is, so you’re talking about an athlete who– I mean, you are extremely tall, so you’re talking about an athlete who is taller than you. As extremely tall, he was heavier than you when he first came into the sport and with proper coaching, with proper dedication to just fueling and strength and all the principles we talked about today has had success in triathlon, has had success in pure cycling both in crit and time trials, has had success in ultra running and pure running. Just yeah, there’s no limit to what you can do no matter what size you are if you just apply yourself and do the right training right and go through the motions, fuel properly and all that jazz. So very, very, very cool for sharing that story Tony. Thanks for that. And you yourself, you have Ironman California coming up so everybody go track Coach Tony. If you’re listening to this episode the Monday it drops, Coach Tony Washington will be hitting Ironman California shortly. Are you excited for that? How do you think it’s going to go?

Tony: Definitely it’s the first flat tri I’ve ever done so it will be really fun to not have to climb up the mountains of Mt. Tremblant or in Roth or in Madison. So looking forward to having a nice, smooth, fast race. There’s going to be hundreds of TriDotters out there supporting Kay, because Kay made us do it and it’s going to be fantastic. It’s going to be an amazing, amazing week and then perhaps a little wine tasting the week after that. So it’s going to be a fantastic race. Looking forward to it. Looking forward to seeing a bunch of the other TriDotters joining us out there.

Andrew: Tony, I’m going to ask a bonus question about something you just said. I might have been the wrong person to write this episode thinking about it now because there’s just probably questions I didn’t think of that a Clydesdale or Athena athlete might have. You referenced you’ve done some races like Mt. Tremblant which is very hilly, you’ve done Roth which has some rolling hills on the bike flat on the run, you’ve done all sorts of different races over your career. I know you’ve done Escape from Alcatraz, extremely hilly. And now you’re doing Ironman California which is a relatively flat race. For our athletes who are a little bit heavier for whatever the reason may be, are there any kind of race course scouting, race course considerations, is there a reason to maybe pick this race over that race based on the elevation gains on certain parts of the course? What would you say to other Clydesdale and Athena athletes on just selecting their race and thinking through the implications of carrying your weight up and down those courses.

Tony: There definitely is, but because I like to focus on strength even something as challenging as Nice was, as we’ve heard some of the stories, and lugging a bigger person up the hills of Nice may be a challenge. But I like to build big, strong folks and despite lugging– We will not have a 7 to 1 power to weight ratio, watts per kilo, but a good 4 and a half up those hills will work and if we’re strong we can do that. It’s definitely something to take into consideration. There’s a couple of really sharp downhill turns on the run in Madison that I walk otherwise I will roll down those hills.

Andrew: Wow.

Tony: I’m not a very good downhill runner. That was the case in St. George for 70.3 Worlds a couple years ago. Not a very good downhill runner and I walked down those hills. So it’s definitely something to look at, but I want to be big and strong and not have anything hold me back. I’m a pretty strong cyclist. There’s not a lot of downhill swimming, but in the river in California it’s going to help. But it’s definitely something to look at. If cycling is your weakness and we’re doing Nice and a ton of ladies are going to be going to Nice, I’m looking forward to helping a ton of folks. We’re getting all sorts of folks signed up to help prepare for that race and we are going to be super strong and those hills will be challenging, but they will be overcome.

Cool down theme: Great set everyone! Let’s cool down.

Vanessa Ronksley: It is time for the Coach Cool Down Tip and I’m Vanessa, your average triathlete with elite level enthusiasm. Today’s guest is TriDot coach Jessica Qualls. Jessica has been a chiropractor for over 16 years and currently works as a clinical manager in the field of utilization review. In the triathlon world, Jessica has been with TriDot since 2019 and is no stranger to standing on the podium from sprints all the way through to 70.3s. However, she considers her biggest athletic achievement her comeback from a serious bike crash that left her with fractures, dislocations, lacerations and a serious brain injury. Jessica is a certified TriDot and USAT coach who enjoys working with athletes wanting to complete 70.3s or those that are struggling with improving in the sport. She loves giving her athletes special attention and watching them succeed as a result of working together. Jessica is also very passionate about female athlete physiology and spends a lot of her time researching this area. Welcome to the cool down Jessica.

Jessica Qualls: Thank you.

Vanessa: I hear that you have an embarrassingly large number of shoes. So I’m curious, how many pairs do you have?

Jessica: Well we have a very important rule at our house and that is that when it comes to things that we like to have a lot of we don’t put numbers on things and we don’t talk about how many we have. However, I will say we are very strongly into triple digits.

Vanessa: No way.

Jessica: Without a doubt.

Vanessa: Are they mostly like running shoes or are they just all kinds of shoes?

Jessica: All kinds of shoes.

Vanessa: That’s fun.

Jessica: There was a very early podcast about running shoes, it was very early, and before that I had one pair of running shoes and that podcast gave me the permission to have long run running shoes and speed work running shoes and racing running shoes and that one was very helpful for my collection.

Vanessa: So we just need to blame Andrew for all of this.

Jessica: Yeah, we can blame him. Anybody but me. But no, it’s definitely a wide range.

Vanessa: Oh, that’s awesome. Thank you for sharing that. I’m also very excited for the tip that you share with your athletes that you feel is important for everybody to hear. So what do you have for us today?

Jessica: Solid plan A and plan B. I honestly think that this is arguably one of the most important tools that we can have in our toolbox. You know, triathletes, we often have these just massive goals and these perfect visions of how we want things to go and very rarely will life allow those things to unfold the way that we think it should or the way we want it to look. Sometimes some athletes, even the smallest disruption in that overall vision, it can trigger this sense of unraveling and they’ll become very overwhelmed to the point that they just literally don’t know what to do. Once that happens this usually will spiral into anxiety, poor decisions, performance dips and unfortunately a lot of times just temptations to quit or just quit. So that’s why a very, very solid, well thought out plan B is so important. Now I’m not talking about just like a backup plan, just some afterthought of a plan. I mean a very defined plan that is part of the overall vision that is just as thought out and just as planned as plan A.

Vanessa: When you’re with an athlete who has this vision of how they want their race to go, how do you go about making plan A, B, C, and D and all the way to Z?

Jessica: Well, a big part of that is determining where their fears are. We can look at certain athletes– I was talking to an athlete the other day whose biggest fear, they felt like they had the bike and the run and everything very worked out and while we’re going to also come up with plan B for those, their biggest fear was the swim. We came up with multiple plans that they could use during the swim because we know that that’s already where their anxieties are going to be. So we want to make sure we’re addressing that one. When the primary vision starts to go crazy, having that predetermined point at which we’re going to switch to a different plan, it can be a game changer and that’s why it’s so important to make sure it’s a very solid plan. It gives the athletes just a good sense of control over a situation that they are already nervous about or that they may have already put a lot of negative focus on. So when we establish that solid B, it’s just part of the overall plan and that’s what I think is so important is that it’s not a backup, it’s part of the overall plan. So they’ll be more comfortable making those adjustments if the main vision isn’t going as planned. So when we’re going to pivot to plan B it’s not just like a scramble to figure out what we’re going to do now that everything is falling apart. There’s no second guessing. You just simply execute the predetermined steps.

Vanessa: Let’s just say for example plan A on the bike is to hit a certain wattage and something happens like it gets super windy. What would you then consider for plan B? Would it be a heart rate zone or would it be lower wattage or how would you go about organizing that for the athlete?

Jessica: It’s really going to depend on the athlete and we do this– I think we should be doing this for assessments, long runs, race rehearsals, race days, everything. But the bike is a really good example especially like– So let’s say like it’s a race rehearsal bike and the plan A is to follow RaceX to a T and we’re going to go out and we’re going to hit those watts just perfect. We’re never going to fall more than three numbers below that prescribed watts. We’re going to go into our planned transition that we have set up and head out on a run with the perfect pace. That’s plan A, right?

Vanessa: Okay.

Jessica: Plan A is perfect. But we start hitting, like you said, some headwinds that are just so big and it’s taking all of our energy out of us. So it’s obvious that after they have tried everything to re engage and despite their best efforts they’re not able to get back to those prescribed watts from the RaceX, from plan A. If they stay out of plan A for a specific amount of time, let’s say we’ve determined for 10 minutes, 20 minutes, whatever it is for that athlete you have been unable to get back on track with plan A…

Vanessa: Right.

Jessica: …after that amount of time that they’ve already determined, they’re going to switch back into plan B.

Vanessa: Okay.

Jessica: Plan B is your heart rate. So then we’re going to hit the heart rate zone of X to X. That amount is already known. They know exactly when they’re going to switch to plan B. They don’t have to think about it and at that point they’re not thinking about watts anymore. They’re maintaining that specific heart rate zone. Like I said, those zones and those cues to when to go to plan B has already been established and depending on the athlete, sometimes in a really bad situation we may need a plan C where now we’re watching cadence.

Vanessa: Okay.

Jessica: It really just depends on we will put all of those in there so that they know if this keeps going bad we’re going to do this. We’re going to do this.

Vanessa: Yeah.

Jessica: So it really prevents them from spiraling and this way they can adapt and refocus and just keep moving forward and it’s not about surviving the race anymore, it’s about accepting this challenge and being successful in it so they can stay in control and just adapt to the moment.

Outro: Thanks for joining us. Make sure to subscribe and share the TriDot podcast with your triathlon crew. For more great tri content and community, connect with us on Facebook, YouTube, and Instagram. Ready to optimize your training? Head to tridot.com and start your free trial today! TriDot – the obvious and automatic choice for triathlon training.

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