Intro: This is the TriDot podcast. TriDot uses your training data and genetic profile, combined with predictive analytics and artificial intelligence to optimize your training, giving you better results in less time with fewer injuries. Our podcast is here to educate, inspire, and entertain. We’ll talk all things triathlon with expert coaches and special guests. Join the conversation and let’s improve together.

Andrew Harley: Welcome to the TriDot podcast! There exists in this world a version of swim, bike, and run where you never actually touch pavement.  A form of “adventure tri”, if you will.  It’s wild, it’s tough, it’s Xterra, and we’re going to learn all about it.  Our first guest joining us for this is triathlon legend and TriDot coach Michellie Jones.  Michellie started her tri career in 1990 and won two ITU Triathlon World Championships in 1992 and 1993.  She won the Xterra Triathlon World Championships in 1996, and won an Olympic silver medal in the Sydney Olympic Games.  She became an Ironman World Championship in just her fourth-ever full-distance Ironman in 2006, and then she won a gold medal at the 2016 Summer Paralympics as a guide for Katie Kelly when paratriathlon made its debut in the Paralympics.  Michellie, welcome back to the show!

Michellie Jones:  Thanks so much for having me on again, Andrew! This is going to be an epic episode! I’m looking forward to discussing all things about getting dirty and off-road.

Andrew:  Also joining us for this dirty and off-road conversation is Andy Blow from Precision Fuel & Hydration.  Andy is a sports scientist with a degree in Sports and Exercise Science from the University of Bath.  An expert in sweat, dehydration, and cramping, Andy has worked with multiple Formula One racing, NBA, NBL, MLB, and premiere-league sports teams, as well as many professional triathletes.  An elite-level triathlete in his younger days, Andy has finished in the top ten of many Ironman events, as well as winning an age-group Xterra world title. Andy Blow, how are things over at Precision headquarters today?

Andy Blow:  All good.  Lots of excitement as well for this conversation for sure.

Andrew:  Well I’m Andrew the Average Triathlete, Voice of the People and Captain of the Middle of the Pack.  As always, we’ll roll through our warmup question, settle in for our main set conversation, and then wind things down with our cooldown.

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Warm up theme: Time to warm up! Let’s get moving.

Andrew:  While we are getting off the beaten path, let’s stay off the beaten path for our warmup question as well.  It is not uncommon for multisport athletes to have adventurous spirits.  Many of us seek out a variety of physical activities in the great outdoors.  So Andy, Michellie, from all of your out-in-the-wild adventures, what is the most stunning bit of scenery that you have ever seen?  Andy, I’ll kick this over to you first.  I know you love the great outdoors, what has dropped your jaw lately?

Andy:  A few years ago I was lucky enough to be invited to do some cross-country skiing, and I went to a place in Switzerland called Crans-Montana.  At the top of the lift there is a place called Glacia Plante Morte, which is a huge loop, ten kilometers, of cross-country skiing. Really high, I don’t exactly know how high, it’s got to be like 3,000 or 4,000 meters up, it is like being on the moon.  I was up there on a beautiful blue day, where the tracks had just been pasted, so I could ski round, and it was absolutely unforgettable.

Andrew:  Andy, that is a sport I have always wanted to try.  Whenever the winter Olympics rolls around, I love watching the cross-country skiing, the biathlon.  I don’t know, it just fascinates me.  I was born in Florida, now live in Texas, so I don’t get a lot of snow to ever try it. But one of these days I’ve got to travel up north during the wintertime.  I know downhill skiing gets all the excitement and buzz, but I’ve always wanted to try cross-country skiing.  That is a great answer, really cool to hear that.  Michellie Jones, from all of your outdoor wilderness explorations, what is one bit of scenery that was just extraordinarily stunning?

Michellie:  Well Andrew, I’m ahead of you, because I have been cross-country skiing once.

Andrew:  Heeeyy, nice!

Michellie:  It was like, do a lap, get in the warming hut.  Do a lap, get in the warming hut.  But I think one of the coolest things I ever did was called the Nature Games in Brazil.  The finish line was literally opposite Iguazú Falls, absolutely spectacular all around you. It was just amazing, we’re finishing right here at this awesome waterfall called Iguazú Falls.  It was just amazing.  I felt like we were in the middle of nowhere, and then all of a sudden it’s these beautiful waterfalls.  I believe it’s right on the Argentina and Brazilian border.

Andrew:  Okay, thank you for the context, I’m going to Google that, take a look at it.  You win a lot of things, Michellie, and your bio is just a ton of different things you’ve won.  Did you win that race there in Brazil?

Michellie:  Yes I did.  World Nature Games, yeah.

Andrew:  I’ll have to add that to your bio, World Nature Games Champion as well.  For me, this answer –my wife and I most recently went to Banff National Park in Canada.  I think it’s one of the most Instagrammed places in the world, particularly Moraine Lake there.  We did some hiking in Banff National Park.  Moraine Lake, the way you have these massive glacial peaks right up against this crystal blue, kind of powder-blue water with the green evergreen trees all around, it’s just absolutely stunning.  My wife and I took a canoe out onto the lake, and you’re just looking at the scenery, and every single direction there’s these giant white peaks.  It lived up to the hype, we loved that entire trip.

We’re going to throw this question out to our audience like we always do.  I’m curious to hear, from all of your travels, all of your adventures, what was the one place that you would call the most breathtaking?  The most stunning bit of scenery you’ve laid your eyes on. Every single Monday when the new episode drops, we ask this question in the I AM TriDot Facebook group.  So make sure you’re a member of that group, find the post asking you this question, and bonus points for pictures on this one.

Main set theme: On to the main set. Going in 3…2…1…

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As a very small portion of the triathlon calendar, Xterra Racing is a niche corner of a somewhat niche sport.  There are for sure more Ironman finishers on this planet than Xterra finishers.  So lucky for us, we have two Xterra World Champions on the episode to tell us all about this off-road form of swim, bike, and run.  So Andy, Michellie, I’m curious for both of you, what drew you to this race format in the first place?  Michellie?

Michellie:  Originally I did do a little bit of mountain biking, and there was at that time – because the Atlanta Olympics was going to have a mountain bike race – I did have someone from the Australian Federation sort of chasing me down, asking me if I wanted to do that, and I’m like, “I don’t have the skill level for that type of racing.”  It definitely takes a certain level of skill, that’s for sure.  Then when they announced Xterra, I just happened to be at a time in my career where I needed something different.  I had taken a little bit of time off, and I’m like, “I’ve done a couple of mountain bike races.”  I had total respect for the mountain bikers, because I knew how good they were technically.  Xterra is not just technical technique on the bike.  It’s also the running, because the trails they use are tough trails.  It’s not the easiest terrain to run on, and I think that’s what’s so appealing about Xterra.  It’s not just a swim, bike, and run, it’s challenging in all aspects.  I think I was just lucky enough that I got to do the first-ever Xterra World Championships, and I think I passed the first person to take over the lead with about 200 meters left to run, so it definitely came down to the wire.  But I definitely loved the experience.  I think the only thing for me – being a little bit more of a purist in terms of being in triathlon, because I was doing the ITU circuit, the Olympics was coming up –my one thing is I crash a lot, so that’s the one thing that made it tough to continue.  It’s like I needed to enhance my skill a little better, and then being a little bit competitive, it's like, “Uh oh!”  But I loved the whole experience, and very happy I could tick that off my to-do list.

Andrew:  Yeah, we’ll definitely talk about some of those skills our triathletes need to develop if they are going to take on Xterra in just a little bit.  Andy, for you, what first drew you to this race format?

Andy:  I started doing triathlon in the mid-1990s.  I was a junior then, and had my sights set.  When they announced that the triathlon was going to be in the Olympics, I thought, “That’s what I want to do.” and I started training with the national squad at the University of Bath in the U.K.  Within a couple of years I think I’d realized that, although I was not bad as an athlete, Great Britain was super, super-strong at that time. I was not going to be one of the guys who was going to get selected to go to the Games.  I wanted to keep doing triathlon, and I wanted to stay excited about it, and around about the same time I’d done some work experience working for Formula One racing team, doing the driver training for them, and we were taking the guys to do quite a lot of biking and quite a lot of mountain biking at the time.  So I started to have a dabble with that.  I had access to some really good mountain bikes, and I went and thought, “I’ll have a go at a few of these races.  It looks like fun, and how hard can it be?”  You find out pretty quickly how hard it can be, when you’re used to riding a time-trial bike on the road and you think, “Oh, I’ve ridden a mountain bike a few times.”  Like Michellie said, it’s tough, but I got into it for a year or two, and ended up going out in 2000 to do the Xterra Worlds because back then we had a round of Xterra in the U.K.  It was literally about 50 miles from where I was living, so I could just drive down there, do the race, basically get a slot, and then got to go out to Maui to do the World Championships out there.  It was everything it promised to be.  It was so good, and it kept me interested in the sport at a time when I was kind of not sure what the future in the sport would be for me.

Andrew:  Gotcha, very interesting.  I mentioned in the top of the show in both your bios, every time you both come on, I mention your world title in this race format.  For Michellie, it was overall champion.  Andy, I think the 20 to 24 age group is what you won that year, correct?

Andy:  Yeah, I was one of the youngsters.

Andrew:  Just one of the babies in the field at that time.  I’m curious to hear the story of that day.  Let’s travel back in time and Michellie, tell us all about the day that you became Xterra World Champion.  What do you remember from that race?

Michellie:  Well you know, I always like to have a race within the race, so there were always some bets with some of the other competitors.

Andrew:  That sounds like you, yep.

Michellie:  It was a technical course, and the technical aspect was sort of doubled, because you’re on volcanic rock.  I think I had crashed a couple days before the race, so I already had some skin off. Back then tri suits weren’t as popular as they are now, so I just had a one-piece bathing suit.  But I did have gloves.  I’m like, “I’m gonna make sure I have gloves and a bathing suit.”  Back in the day those were my options, and I was lucky enough that I was sponsored by a really good mountain bike brand at the time, so I had all the gear and no idea, basically.  It was funny, because a lot of the triathletes were saying, “We’re gonna crush the mountain bikers,” and I’m like, “No, I’m pretty sure they’re gonna crush us on these technical courses.”  Of course I had a great swim, it was in the ocean.  Even though I have been rescued before in surf one time in Australia, I really love when you get a little bit of surf.  Then I got out on the bike, and it was just a waiting game, just seeing when I was going to get passed by some of the mountain bike girls. For me, it was all about taking the technical aspects of the course as fast as I could.  It was so funny, I was scooting past a couple of the professional men, and they’re like, “Michellie be careful, you’re gonna hurt yourself! ”I’m like, “I’m not going that hard compared to what the mountain bike gals will be going!”  It’s always interesting, that different perspective. But what I liked about the Xterra course that I remember, there was everything.  There were ups, downs, you had a lot of volcanic rock as well, then you had to go over tree roots and little tree logs.  It was super fun.  The thing about mountain biking, it’s a little bit like if you ever have done motocross, you get that arm pump burn.  You’re hanging on for dear life, but at some point you can’t hang on anymore. So you’ve got to let loose, because your hands are so blown, your wrists are so blown up.  I just remember coming into the long straight into transition for the run, and I’m like, “Yes!  Now the run!” The run was challenging as well, it was like you were ducking underneath trees, you’re jumping over logs, it was twisty and turny, and then you had some really good up and down sections, and then of course you hit the beach.  I actually grew up running, doing a lot of racing on the beach.  I loved the beach, I love running on the beach.  Literally, as soon as I got on the beach, I saw that I was almost in the lead, so I gave everything I could to catch up –

Andrew:  Drop the hammer.

Michellie:  Yeah, literally it was like a couple-second victory.  I was pretty tired after the race.  One of the hardest races you can do in that amount of time, just because it’s so anaerobic, and your heart rate is so high, and you’ve just got to keep pushing.  Then it’s high because of that fear factor on the bike as well.  There’s no real time where you can really chill.  The whole time, mentally and physically, you’re on your game.  But when I look back, I’m like, “You know what, I’m glad I did it.”  Definitely happy that I crossed the line and I won, but they’re challenging races.  That’s the sort of racing that I like, though, that’s long enough but short enough that it’s intense, and you can pretty much go as hard as you need to go.

Andrew:  I enjoy trail running.  Actually, the last time Andy Blow was in Dallas, Texas he and I went for a nice little trail run around the lakes here in North Texas.  I like trail running for about seven or eight miles, then after that I just want to get back on a road.  I’m sick of having to pay attention to everything I do.  It sounds like, on both the mountain bike and the run, you just constantly have to be aware of what you’re doing.  I love the comparison to motocross.  My brother and I used to ride dirt bikes in central Florida where we grew up.  When we were teenagers, he was amazing at it.  I just tried to keep up with him in the woods without hitting a tree.  Yeah, it works all these different control muscles in your wrists, on a dirt bike it’s your thumb.  My thumb would wear out just from pressing the accelerator.  It works all these little control muscles that, being in a time trial, aero position for 112 miles on a straight road doesn’t work.  Very interesting to hear all of that.  Andy, for you, winning that 20 to 24 age group as a youngster from the U.K., what was your experience like in Maui racing the World Championships?

Andy:  It was unbelievable.  Everything about the trip was unbelievable.  It was my first time going to Hawaii, so that in itself is mind-blowing. You get there and jump in the ocean and go for a swim, and it was just insane, it was incredible.  I was just high on life when I arrived.  I do remember going out and scoping out some of the biking in the days leading up, because I’d never ridden on that kind of lava rock and stuff, and I came off.  Quite an innocuous little fall, but I absolutely got shredded.  It’s like falling on razor blades, it’s unreal and painful.  I learned a good lesson there, and I had to get patched up. I think on the race photos you can see down one of my knees, half the skin’s missing.  But that was pretty valuable to learn.  Then in the race itself, the most memorable thing, which is pretty nasty, there’s a big climb, and you get up to the top, and then there’s a fast descent, which is along over the lava rock and stuff.  I can see Michellie nodding her head.  This guy in front of me, I think it was a German lad who was in my age group as well, we were racing pretty close and he was ahead of me, and he took a nasty tumble. He went over the handlebars, and on that kind of rock, I thought, “He’s not coming back from that.”  I saw him later on after the race, and saw how badly his back was cut up.  That was definitely baked into my brain.  I also remember that, for weeks ahead of it, I’d been reading all about the race in magazines, and talking to people, and everyone said how many punctures you're likely to get because of the massive thorns they have there.  I think one of the reasons I did okay in the race was I just skated through without a single puncture.  There’s a really high rate of people getting punctures in that race, so I was just very fortunate.  I did put new tires on for the race, just to be doubly sure, but you can’t protect yourself entirely from those kinds of things.  That seemed to work, so I managed to finish without a puncture.  The other thing that I remember is at one point on the run, having come over from the U.K., it was in October, I’d not been training in the heat. I was not ready for the heat or used to the heat, I was just boiling over on the run.  There was a guy there watering his lawn with his hose pipe towards the end of the run, and I actually stopped and grabbed his hose pipe and put it down my top.  I’ve never felt so good after that.  Then the final thing that really made it for me, as part of the prize for winning the age group, we were given a helicopter tour.  We flew over the rainforest bit, the lava flows, flew over Jaws, the big surf break where there’s some epic waves.  It was hands-down one of the best experiences I’ve ever had.

Andy:  Very cool. It’s very telling that for both of you, you lost a fair amount of skin off your body before you even got to the start line of that Xterra, just in the days leading up and recounting the course, you both lost some skin and fell.  Great stories there, congrats to you both on that win.

Michellie:  Andrew, I think one of the best prizes I ever got was from Xterra, that I got a year’s supply of Paul Mitchell hair products.

Andrew:  Hey, nice! I don’t need those, but good for you! Both of you could certainly benefit from that.  So coming into this conversation, I had heard of the Xterra World Championships.  I actually watched it on TV one time, that’s the race that we’re all talking about with you both winning in Maui.  I know there are two Xterra races in my neck of the woods here in Texas, but those are the only ones that I’m aware of.  The World Championships in Maui, one in Waco, and one in Dallas.  That’s the list I’m familiar with.  What are the significant Xterra races out there, and how can an athlete find one near them?  Andy Blow?

Andy:  The one that I did to qualify for the World Championships years ago was Xterra Great Britain.  That’s been absent for a number of years, but it has just been brought back this year. It was on about three weeks ago, Alistair Brownlee showed up.  They’re really making a push to bring that one back, and Europe has become quite a scene for it.  For quite a few years there was a French guy, Nick Lebrun, he was a duathlete and Xterra racer.  I think partly because of his success, but also because of the terrain they’ve got, there have historically been some fantastic Xterra races in France.  The World Championships have moved to Italy in recent years, I think they’re in Italy again this year in September.  So I think from the European perspective, there’s lots of options.  Although Xterra is the brand that everyone knows, I’ve certainly raced over the years a lot of non-Xterra-branded, off-road duathlons and triathlons.  We’ve had a big series of off-road duathlons through the winter in the U.K., which are kind of like training races.  They would just be one- or two-mile first run, ten or twelve miles on the mountain bike, and a two- or three-mile second run.  They were always really popular.  They’ve never really become fully mainstream, but they’re out there if you go looking for them.

Andrew:  Very interesting.  I know that trail running and ultra running is very big in Europe compared to the states, and you get big crowds at the popular European trail races.  I guess that makes sense that that adventurous spirit translates to off-road triathlon over in Europe.  Also very interesting to hear that the World Championships have been moved from Maui to Italy, I did not know that.  Michellie, what is the Xterra scene in the United States looking like these days?

Michellie:  Definitely you can do a search, the Xterra website has a bunch of races in different regions.  Of course, if the big goal is to qualify for the World Championships, you have to qualify. Just like in Ironman to get to Kona, and that’s exactly the same process when it comes to Xterra.  Basically, you’ll see that there are communities that support the Xterra races.  You’ve got to find lake access or some type of water access, and mountain bike access. They are out there, and definitely I would put on my bucket list.  In different regions around the country, you can find some Xterra races.  Like I said earlier, I’ve done some races that aren’t Xterra-branded, and there are duathlons as well, so there are ways to do it. The thing I love about mountain biking, it’s really good for skill development for any level athlete.  Put yourself out there, go and do something that you never thought you could do, because there are different levels of Xterra racing.  You just have to work out the type of terrain that you want to go do.  Obviously the World Championship is going to be the max in terms of experience level, you definitely need a good level of experience. But it’s amazing what you can do if you put your mind to it.  That little bit of skill helps your overall triathlon.  And who doesn’t want to get out and run on the trails and bike on the trails?

Andrew:  Let’s talk about the races themselves, as you bounce from Xterra to Xterra.  Like road triathlon – there’s Ironman, there’s Challenge Family, there’s CLASH Endurance, and there’s also off-brand races, local races that are excellent, great options, very cool to hear that.  In the off-road triathlon market, there’s Xterra, but then there’s also local options that athletes can tap into and find. What are these races like?  What are the courses like?  What kind of terrain can athletes expect to encounter? And I’m really curious, what are the distances like?  I can’t imagine doing 140.6 miles on a mountain bike off-road.  Andy, tell us about these races, what can we expect to get into?

Andy:  You can expect a lot of variety.  The only thing that’s vaguely similar with all of them is the swim, usually, and even that can be different, because obviously some will be ocean – ocean swims are probably rarer, because getting good mountain bike access from the beach is potentially more rare – so often you’ll be swimming in a lake, because you’ll be at a park or a woodland setting or something like that.  But once you get on the bike, it could literally be anything. I’ve ridden off-road triathlons that have been multiple laps of a really short track – sort of smooth, fast, but twisty and technical mountain bike circuit – through to ones that do a massive loop where you’re going essentially up a huge climb, and down the other side, and back around, down in the Alps or whatever.  Lots and lots of variety.

One of the key things, actually, about success – and not just success for racing,  but success in terms of enjoying your race – is to do your homework about what the course is like.  Because when you’re a novice mountain biker, you probably assume, “Okay, I need tires with grip, and I need certain gear ratios.” The reality is, the nuance of things like tire choice and tire pressure, whether you ride a full suspension or a front suspension, or even a rigid bike, are really quite important when it comes to the mountain biking side of things. Because even the right bike with the wrong setup can make a huge difference.  I will freely admit, when I started mountain biking in the mountain bike races, I was shocked, because I would pump my tires pretty much as hard as they would go, because surely that was faster.  Then you look at the people in mountain biking, a thing that people do is go around squeezing other people’s tires, because everyone’s paranoid about what pressure they should be running.  It’s like a little test, and you realize these people have got little pressure gauges that tell you the difference between 4 and 5 psi to see how they should be running the tires.  Because if it’s dry and dusty and you want more grip, you might run them a little bit softer, and you might harden them up if it’s a big rocky, so you don’t get pinch flats.  But you don’t want to make them too hard, because you get too much vibration.  You can get things like, if you run on a fast mountain bike course, if you run something called a semi-slick tire, which is essentially a low-tread tire down the middle, and it’s got much more grip around the corners for when you’re leaning the bike over.  The difference in rolling resistance can be, I would liken it to whether you sat on the wheel on a road bike, or whether you’re sat into the wind.  It can make that much difference in the wattage outputs.  Whilst you certainly don’t have to become a complete bike geek, you do need to understand tire pressures, tire selection is probably the number one thing to understand.

The second thing to understand is how to set suspension up for your body weight.  A lot of bikes with suspension forks have air pressure pumps, so you have chambers that you set to your body weight, and to the dynamics of the riding. These days as well, with a little bit more choice in gear ratios, is making sure you have adequate gearing for whatever the course throws at you.  It’s one thing running out of gears on steep descents when you don’t need to pedal, but it’s another thing running out of gears going up.  You need to have the appropriate ratios for your level of ability.  Because you get those things wrong, and you are bringing a knife to a gunfight, really.

Andrew:  It sounds like the bike setup and tire selection and all that is almost more important here than it is at a triathlon race.  I’m a very timid mountain bike rider myself, but I do somewhat enjoy it for a little bit from time to time.  And I know nothing about the specific setup and the tire choices you can have and all that.  So yeah, go talk to your local bike shop, go pick the brain of that one local triathlete in your tri club that does Xterra, and make sure – when I roll up to my first Xterra race, I’ve got a setup that has me ready for success.  Great stuff there, Andy.  Michellie, is that something that you know much about, or did you kind of rely on the mechanics around you to get your setup right for you?

Michellie:  Definitely it was a part of the mechanics, but then you also have to know what you like in the end too.  When I was racing, you had the choice of a couple of things, like front suspension, and then they started doing the dual suspension.  As I said, I ran into problems with the dual suspension because they made it too soft for the type of course I was riding, so that was super frustrating.  The other thing that I love about the mountain bike scene is how much that technology has crossed over to triathlon.  Like we have the disc brakes, we have the 1x (“one-by”) drivetrain, and the tubeless tires.  It’s amazing, all that sort of stuff has really come from that mountain bike scene, and it’s so awesome to see it coming into triathlon.  As for the technical aspect of mountain biking, you do definitely need some knowledge, that knowledge of how the equipment works, and definitely tire pressure is huge.  Back in the day on the tri bike, you pump your tires up as high as you can go, and now with tubeless it’s totally different.  You can get away with 60 to 80 psi rather than over 100 psi. Yeah, I think knowledge is valuable, particularly on a technical course, because if it’s a wet course to a dry course to a rocky course, to volcanic rock type of course, all those experiences are important.  As I said, it transfers over to all of triathlon.

Andrew:  I’m curious to hear, beyond the bikes, there’s other gear selection I’m sure that is different, between the helmets and the cycling shoes and the running shoes. When you roll up to an Xterra race – obviously you're on a mountain bike and not a road bike or tri bike – what else is different about the gear selection that our triathlete audience should be aware of if they’re interested in tackling Xterra?

Andy:  I think the running is probably the next obvious one after the bike.  A bit like with the bike tires, you’ve got to select the shoes for the course.  You’re going to predominantly want some off-road running shoes, so check the VaporFlys at the door, and get something that has a little bit more grip.

Michellie:  And stability.

Andy:  Yeah, definitely.  I used to take – if I hadn’t been to the place, like when I went out to Maui – I did take a couple of different pairs of shoes with me, because I just had no idea what would work.

Andrew:  Yeah, just to feel it out.

Andy:  Yeah. I think if it’s dry, like in Maui, you could almost get away with a road shoe.  It’s not going to be optimal, but you can kind of get away with it, because the dry means it grips.  I’ve raced races in Europe or in the U.K. when you’re in slippy woodland when it’s rained, and then you need a full fell running shoe with really deep looks and those kind of things.  Michellie brought this one up earlier as well, which is a really smart one, but I would say most of the time you’re going to want to wear gloves on the bike. One, just because if you’ve got soft triathlete hands –

Andrew:  Yeah, delicate hands.

Andy:  Yeah, you’re going to need to protect them a bit.  But also if you come off, which is way more likely on the mountain bike, obviously the first thing you do is put your hands out, and it can save you a lot of pain and a lot of lost skin if you are wearing gloves.  Then the only other one – which is probably quite obvious but I have seen people do this – don’t put road shoes and road pedals on a mountain bike.  Because if it’s a vaguely technical course, there will almost certainly be a point where you’ve got to unclip.  Mountain bike shoes have recessed cleats, like SPD cleats or something that’s up inside the sole of the shoe with the grip around it, and maybe even some of the less racier shoes have a little bit more flex in the sole.  So if you’ve got to run in the shoes, and push the bike, you can do so without damaging the cleats.  Trying to see someone in carbon tri shoes with Look pedals running up a steep, muddy slope is good for YouTube videos, but not –

Andrew:  Good for a laugh, yeah.  Is the helmet any different for mountain biking as opposed to road cycling?

Michellie:  Definitely it’s the same sort of technology, but you’ll have a visor normally on a mountain bike.  You’re not going to get on and wear a full aero helmet for sure.  Nobody does that, everyone has mountain bike helmets.  They have a purpose, and usually they have a little visor to protect your face a little bit more, as well.  The main thing is also what you wear.  You don’t want to be doing it in your swimsuit.  A tri suit is much better functionally really than even a normal triathlon, because if you come off, you do want a little bit of a layer that hopefully you can protect your skin a little bit as well.  As Andy said about the shoes, you’re off your bike a lot as well, so those mountain bike shoes just give a little bit more than a tri shoe.  The gloves are a big one, because you do want to protect your hands if you fall off. And if you hit something, you’re going to protect your hand a little bit.  Sunglasses are important as well.

Andrew:  I know from my mountain bike friends that I have, it seems like the transition lenses on the sunglasses are really popular in mountain biking, because you’re going in and out of the trees a lot more. When you’re road cycling, you start off first thing in the morning, you can have your sunnies in your back pocket, and as the sun comes up you can put them on.  But for mountain biking, you’re constantly going in and out of trees, in and out of the shade, so having a lens darken and brighten for you is super helpful.  That’s a next-level tip that I know.

Michellie:  :Yeah, and the dirt that can get in your eyes very easily if it’s dusty, or if you’re riding behind someone and it’s tracking up rocks and stones and dirt. So it’s a visual and protection component as well.

Andy:  The other thing I’ve just thought of, is I definitely raced in a few Xterra races with a hydration backpack on the bike.  Because unlike a regular triathlon, there may well not be a bottle handoff on the bike.  A lot of mountain bikes only have one bottle cage on them.  Even if they do have two, you might not want to take two, because the risk of them bouncing out is pretty high.  The other thing is, especially if you’re not as confident a bike handler or the course is really technical, there might be really long stretches where you can’t take your hands off the bars to drink.  But if you can put the tube from the hydration pack in your mouth and hold it there, then you can drink whenever you like.  Unlike a mountain bike race – you might be on the bike for two hours in Xterra, or an hour and a half, but that’s not the end of it.  You’ve got to get off and run for 40 minutes or an hour or whatever, and you’ve not got a great chance to hydrate and take energy in when you’re doing that.

Andrew:  Great idea, because certainly there’s no aero penalty on a mountain bike for having that hydration backpack on.  It can also serve you well on the run, as they’re obviously very popular in the trail run community.  Camelback and several other brands have excellent, lightweight options for holding fluids on your back during mountain biking and trail running.  Great addition there, Andy.  Michellie, I’m curious to hear from you on this, as the TriDot coach on this episode.  We have TriDotters do Xterra races throughout the year, TriDot training can absolutely get you ready for an Xterra race.  But you have to know the terrain is different, the muscle recruitment is different, so it probably takes beefing up those strong muscles in the legs a little bit more.  As a TriDot coach, what would you tell an athlete to do to tweak their training to prep properly for the terrain of an Xterra event?

Michellie:  Obviously, you’ve got to train very similar systems.  Definitely the top end, you’re probably going to work a little bit more on high cadence, as well as doing some of that strength endurance work that you need for climbing.  On the run, it’s putting some of those runs off-road, doing some intervals on the hills so you are used to varied terrain.  Working on some steeper climbs, working on some downhill technique, I’d definitely add a skill workout.  One thing I used to do, I would find one hill that I can go up and down on, and practice sliding into the turn, turning around, and then low speed, getting back up to speed, and also getting on and off your bike.  Because in these Xterra races, you are getting on and off the bike a lot, so make sure that you are comfortable getting on and off your bike, and getting on your bike when you’re in the middle of a hill, because sometimes you have to do that as well.  I think the skill level is super important, because that’s something that you really need to work on.  But in terms of training the different energy systems – it is a time trial, because your heart rate is going to be high, and your heart rate is going to be varied. Even on the downhill, it will be a little bit higher than typically because of the adrenaline and the mental focus. So definitely those types of workouts are super important, because sometimes you're going to be on a long climb, sometimes you’re going to be on a short, steep climb.  Sometimes you’ve got to quickly jump off your bike, because you just can’t climb anymore, and then you’ve got to jump back on.  So your heart rate is constantly spiking up and down the entire time.  So it’s really important that your body gets used to that lactic acid.  I always tell people that lactic acid is your frenemy, so you should definitely utilize that system.  It’s evil, but it’s good, because if you can get lactic acid buffer bigger and bigger, that’s really going to help you in all types of terrain.

Andrew:  You talk about those bike skills, are there any other skills that we need to brush up on that aren’t tied to fitness?  I love the suggestion of practicing getting on and off the bike, because there’s going to be times when you’re going up a hill and you hit a rock, and your momentum stalls, and you’ve got to hop off the bike and run up the hill.  How do we go about practicing those skills?  Is it just finding terrain and working on it over and over again?  Are there ways we can be intentional with that?  If somebody lives somewhere – maybe they are racing in Maui, Hawaii where there’s lava rock, and they don’t live where there’s lava rock – what are the best ways to go about developing the technical skills that it will take on Xterra?

Michellie:  If you don’t live in an area that has the technical aspects, you can put a block of wood out and learn how to get your front wheel over and your back wheel over.  There’s lots of things, like jumping up and off a curb, that’s developing a skill that you will need.  It’s learning the relationship between your front brake and your back brake, setting up a little bit of a cone course.  You can be super creative, whether it’s just throwing out a block of wood, or going up and down some curbs.  That’s going to help you as well.

Andy:  I think you’ve got that training side of it, but what I found most beneficial when I started doing Xterra and wanted to do a little bit better at it, was I showed up at some local mountain bike races, and got stuck in.

Michellie:  Yeah, I did that as well.

Andy:  Because putting yourself in that competitive, pressured environment where you’re racing on different terrain, I think that’s probably the ultimate way to prepare. The difficulty is, especially if you’ve been an even halfway decent triathlete in general, you might turn up there and expect to do pretty well, and that’s going to lead to an ego check, a bit of disappointment.  The contribution that skill makes to the whole equation, like Michellie’s been alluding to, is so high.  I remember the first mountain bike race I did, just being completely humbled.  Then as long as you can get over that, it’s a really good way to throw yourself into a competitive environment and learn on the job, because you’ll be bumping wheels with people.  The other thing, probably the best thing that comes from that, is riding behind riders that are faster than you downhill, because you get to see the lines that they take, you get to see how they move their body on the bike and distribute their weight.  One of the best tips that I was ever given when someone tried to help me was telling me where to look.  Because when you’re a bit nervous and scared, you look far too close in front of the front wheel, or you look at all the things that you’re scared about hitting, which of course only increases your chance of riding into them.  Whereas what you’ve got to do is relax, sit up, look ahead. As when you’re driving a car, the faster you’re going, the further down the road you want to be looking.  Then when you’re going into a corner, you want to set yourself up, look at where you want to be going, and then your posture changes.  Rather than looking at where you’ll be in the next two seconds, you want to look at where you’ll be in a few seconds’ time, because you set yourself up for it.  All of these things, I think, only come with repetitive practice, and with a bit of relaxation, learning to be relaxed on the bike. Because when you’re not relaxed on the bike, not only are you more likely to crash, you’re going to burn twice the energy you need to, because you make everything hard work, because you’re banging into things, you’re not smoothly flowing over the ground.  You’re just making it hard work.  So getting into a race kind of puts all of that out there, and will bring you along faster than anything else.

Andrew:  I imagine that’s the case for trail running as well.  Jump into a couple trail run-specific events and learn from those trail runners.  Watch the way they pace themselves going up and down those hills, watch the way they handle and glide over certain forms of terrain, rocks, roots, etc.  I imagine too, Andy, if you’re following a more experienced mountain biker up and down a hill, listen for when they change gear, and watch the way they anticipate.  It’s very difficult to change gears in the middle of a pedal stroke on an uphill effort, so you have to anticipate those gear shifts when you’re on such varied terrain, so it’s another thing you can learn.  Great suggestion.  Very similar, when we did our podcast episode a few months back on swim-run with Coach Rhea Usher.  Andy I know you’re good friends with Rhea over there in the U.K., she’s one of our great TriDot coaches through Precision Coaching over there in London.  That was one thing that she suggested to aspiring Aquabike athletes, was to jump into some swim-specific events, and jump into some bike time trial events, because it will really help you learn how to go all-out on the bike in a time trial, because that’s what you’re doing in Aquabike. Very similar here, Andy, with that suggestion, I love that.  What tips would you have for a competitive athlete who is looking for a good result? They don’t just want to show up and participate, they want to show up and podium and win.  What is the race strategy involved in racing Xterra?  What would you say, Michellie?

Michellie:  The race strategy depends on the course, as well.

Andrew:  Don’t fall down, don’t puncture.

Michellie:  Well, it’s also positioning, because you don’t want to get caught behind somebody who’s slower on the descents, if you’re a much faster descender, because that’s going to slow you down.  I think the main thing is skill level.  I mean, you’re going to have an engine.  If you’re a good athlete, you have the engine.  I still think that that skill level is the biggest thing. Knowing the course, knowing what you’re going to face every meter of that course is super helpful.  Knowing the lines, riding those difficult lines before the race, getting that nice flow that Andy talked about.  That’s super important, because you can gain so much just by being super smooth on the courses.  Even the running, it’s not a type of run where you’re just going out to run as fast as you can.  It’s technical, so choose good shoes based on the conditions.  Know the course a little bit, so you know where the rocks are going to be, where you can put pressure on people.  Nutrition is key as well.  That’s another huge factor if you want to do well, because there are less opportunities, especially on the bike, to get that nutrition back, but it’s still a couple hours of racing.  Make sure you do know what your numbers are based on the sweat testing you can get, because if you’re in a place like Hawaii, it’s super hot and humid.  Then you’ve got to look at that cold-weather nutrition as well, where you may not be drinking as much, so you need calories in some other type of source.  All those sorts of things, I don’t think it changes too much whether you want to be an elite-level athlete at regular triathlete, or off-road triathlon.  I think the biggest difference is that skill level and equipment choice.

Andrew:  Andy, one of the things Michellie mentioned, obviously, is the importance of nutrition, which we know that’s the case in all endurance sports.  I’m curious, in the case studies that you’ve done with Precision, I know that you’ve studied trail runners, Xterra athletes, regular road triathletes.  Are you guys seeing Xterra triathletes and mountain bikers and trail runners do anything different in their hydration and nutrition than regular road triathlon? Or is the approach very much the same, just know your numbers and hit them?

Andy:  That’s the core of the approach, but where it changes when you're racing off-road is you can’t always eat and drink when you want to.  When you’re doing a mountain bike race, it’s not unusual for there to be pretty savage technical sections, and then either some long, open climbs or a more flatter, sweeping section where you’ve got to try to do all of your eating and drinking in a very condensed period of time.  I definitely remember doing one of my early mountain bike races, and partly through fear and partly through just completely forgetting, I didn’t touch my drink bottle the whole way round.  I raced for an hour and a half, and I realized at the end why I’m so thirsty and feeling like I’m blowing up.  Well, it’s because I haven’t touched a drop, because I’ve been so focused. That’s all part of building experience, but you need to have a bit more of a flexible plan.  For instance, I figured out that probably I needed to have more liquid calories in an Xterra, because I wasn’t going to be fishing around for gels in my pockets quite as much as I would be prepared to on the road. And don’t underestimate carb loading. Carb loading is really important for any race, but for a race like an Xterra, if it’s like 2½ or 3 hours or whatever, carb loading can get you a long way.  It’s a really good performance advantage to get that right beforehand. I think just making sure that your strategy incorporates the vagaries and difficulty of eating and drinking on the trails is important.  It’s another reason why having the hydration bladder on your back is a great idea, because if it’s hot and dry that’s good, because you’re going to drink a lot.  If it’s wet and muddy, your bike and bottle get caked in mud and dirt very quickly, and is very unappealing to drink out of, and you end up squirting a lot of it away as you’re trying to clean the nozzle. I’ve used an entire bottle of drink in a race to unclog the rear neck if it’s covered in mud, because while not drinking is going to slow me down, my wheel not turning is going to slow me even more.  I’m trying to prioritize and sacrifice the drink to clear out the thing.  That’s one of the big things about the nutritional side of it.  Probably having something like a bottle and some gels and some things in your transition bag or in your transition area, and just accept that you're going to be doing a little bit more eating and drinking at the start of the run, because at least you’re in control of that.  You can run out with a bottle, you can run out with some gels and eat them, just get used to that.  Another thing that came to my mind when you were talking about being competitive at this – maybe this is just a confession from my own racing, but I always used to think on the mountain bike that being from a triathlon background, where fitness is probably higher than the others in the field, but technical skill is lower, I would try and tactically use that by getting ahead of people on climbs, and obviously making the most of working really hard at those. I’m not afraid to sit in front of someone on the descent and hold them up, because it's a really narrow track. They can get really angry, but they can’t get by you.

Andrew:  It’s a race, sorry!

Andy:  Exactly. You kind of neutralize their super power.

Michellie:  It’s funny that you say that, because I was in a mountain bike race once, and literally they were trying to shove me off the side of the trail, because there was no room to pass.  And I’m like, “Hey, I was trying to get past you on the climbs, and you didn’t get out of my way, I’m not getting out of the way on the downhills, sorry!”

Andy:  Yeah, yeah. That’s the triathlete when it comes to mountain biking, get in the way on the descents, and blast by people on the climb.  I think there’s a little bit more tactics like that.  I guess the other one, on the fitness side, which Michellie definitely has talked about, is training the power-on/power-off sort of systems, where you do a little bit more hill repeats and those kinds of things, because it’s never going to be a smooth effort.  If you have a good Ironman race on a flat course, you can put out a very smooth and steady effort all day, and you don’t need to go too near the red zone. Whereas in an Xterra, you’re definitely going into the red zone multiple times, and if you haven’t trained those energy systems, that’s very costly.

Michellie:  In an Ironman, you’re always talking about “don’t burn the match! ”But in an off-road triathlon, you’re burning a lot of matches, so you’ve got to get your body used to that.

Andrew:  Yeah, in the TriDot workout catalog, there are some bike workouts like 30-30’s, 30-90’s, where it is short bursts of intense effort.  On the run it’s MAV shuttles, where you’re sprinting all-out for 20 seconds, short burst efforts.  Maybe if you’re working with a TriDot coach like Michellie Jones, she can fire up a few extra of those types of workouts for you, knowing you’re getting ready for an Xterra event, that’s for sure.  In the end, after all this talk and conversation, who is Xterra for? Do you think every triathlete – if you enjoy triathlon, you will probably enjoy Xterra, you should give it a go? Or do you have to have a certain edge to your personality to truly enjoy an Xterra?  Michellie, what do you think?

Michellie:  I think if you do decide to do an Xterra, the number one thing is choose a course that’s to your level and ability.  If you aren’t super skilled, there are some off-road triathlons that are on big fire trails and roads, so it’s not as hard as some of the other, more technical courses.  But if you’re the type of athlete who enjoys the outdoors, if you want to push your skill level a little bit more, I definitely think that’s the type of athlete. Definitely somebody who’s very skilled on the bike, who’s very comfortable, they’re the ones that are going to really excel at that type of racing.

Andy:  People sometimes go through phases with triathlon where you start out, and triathlon is the new thing for you.  It’s quite exciting and adventurous regardless.  Then maybe when I started doing it, I was showing those first signs of being a little bit jaded with doing normal road triathlon, so I wanted the next hit, what was the next most interesting thing?  So maybe a good time to do it is if you’re finding yourself getting a little bit stale with regular road triathlons, or you’ve kind of plateaued out.  There’s a lot less emphasis on time – everyone knows what a 9:30 Ironman means, or a 10:15 Ironman, or whatever the standard is – it doesn’t really matter in Xterra, because the courses are so different.  So if you’re looking to revitalize your interest in endurance or multisport, it may be a good time to do it.  But you have got to be ready to embrace a lack of predictability.  You’re far more likely to have mechanical problems that could result in you not finishing.  You're more likely to trip over, or fall off your bike, or that kind of thing.  So it doesn’t necessarily sit as well with the kind of OCD types who want to control everything.

Andrew:  A very important thing to point out here to this audience, yeah.

Andy:  I say that kind of tongue-in-cheek, but a lot of triathletes can have tendencies in that direction.  I think though, there is one thing that we haven’t talked about, worth mentioning briefly. There’s this kind of emergent, maybe of another breed of off-road, which are these SGRAIL kind of gravel triathlons. Obviously, gravel racing and gravel riding is gone huge, especially in the U.S., but starting to go everywhere. There are some of these fun gravel triathlons, and I think they have potential to attract triathletes for the crossover, because the gravel riding is typically not quite as technical. They can be longer distances, so there’s a lot more crossover for long-distance tri, and they might also be a way for triathletes to access a bit of off-road in a more friendly format. It’s quite jarring to go from riding a TT bike on a flat road to a full Xterra course, but if you kind of halfway-house it with a bit of gravel riding, that might be a way of easing the transition.

Cool down theme: Great set everyone! Let’s cool down.

Vanessa Ronksley: Welcome to the cooldown, everyone!  I’m Vanessa, your Average Triathlete with Elite-Level Enthusiasm!  I am here with TriDot Master Coach Kathy Hudson for our Coach Cooldown Tip.  Kathy is very passionate about coaching triathletes, and has been a TriDot coach since 2016, and she was newly appointed as a TriDot Master Coach in 2022.Kathy has many superpowers in the triathlon realm, and one of them is her ability to connect with her athletes, who range from newbies all the way to Kona qualifiers, and they often have crazy schedules that most people would say triathlon would not typically fit into their lifestyle.  Her first career was working for the CIA, and she spent many years living abroad as a result. But she now lives in Waco, Texas to be closer to her young grandchildren.  Kathy holds many certifications, from strength and conditioning to metabolic efficiency training, and her coaching expertise involves sports nutrition and finding balance between triathlon and everything else that life holds, which I know is a huge struggle for many, many athletes. One thing that not many people know about Kathy is that she is bilingual.  Kathy, welcome to the cooldown, and you must start off by telling us what other language you speak!

Kathy Hudson:  The other language I speak is Spanish.  We lived in very many Latin American countries, and I had the opportunity to use the language, and absolutely loved it and still practice it and use it on occasion.

Vanessa:  That’s great. So you use it now for your family vacations as opposed to your work-related obligations?

Kathy:  Yes, that is very true.  I love foreign language, and enjoy speaking the language, and love it when I have the opportunity to do so here.

Vanessa:  That’s great. So let’s get started today with what tip you have for all the triathletes out there.

Kathy:  I think a good tip is one that really impacts race day.  On race day, we have a plan.  We all know that race days are long, whether you’re doing a half-Ironman distance or a full Ironman distance.  It’s a long day, and it’s extremely important to understand that during this day, unexpected things are going to happen.  It’s extremely important to be a problem solver.  “Okay, I’m going to be a problem-solver out there. When something happens, I’m going to fix it, and then I’m going to move on.”  That is going to be your major job.  Unless it’s medical, that’s what you’re going to do.  I have kind of a funny, quick story.  I had an athlete doing Ironman Florida.  It was his first Ironman, and I had told him that it’s going to be a long day, solve the problem, move on.  He was on his bike, and an eighteen-wheeler was coming in the other direction, and a rock popped up, and the rock hit him in his front teeth. He lost his front tooth, and he was on his bike spitting tooth and blood, and hearing this voice in his head going, “Okay, if I stop the race right now, I’m not going to get my tooth back. I’m just going to keep going.”  So he did, and I was so proud of him. Sadly, all of his Ironman finisher pictures are without his front tooth, but he was still just as proud as I was of him. Things like that can happen.

Vanessa:  I am sure that that race photo now conjures up this massive amount of confidence, and as you said, makes you feel so proud, because he went through pretty adverse conditions to get to that point.  Seeing that race photo is just a testament to how strong he is, and how much of a problem-solver he is.  I’m so glad that he had that voice in his head at that very moment, because most people would just want to quit.  You must have quite an impression on your athletes if he’s able to hear your voice at that moment.  That’s so cool, I love that.

Kathy:  Thank you. If I could add just one more little thing, I want athletes to go into a race with a plan A.  We talk about having Plan A, B, C, and D.  If you need to go through the entire alphabet to get to the finish line, then that’s what you do.  One of my favorite mantras is “relentless forward motion”.  Just keep moving.  It doesn’t have to be pretty, it may not be how you trained, but just keep moving, and try really hard not to let that define you.

Vanessa:  I have to tell you what this reminds me of.  This idea, this notion of problem-solving, that you have no way to go but forward, is what my midwives said to me about giving birth.  You have Plan A, you have Plan B, and you might not even get any of those options, but at the end of it, you end up with an amazing prize, which is your baby.  And at the end of an Ironman – or any distance whatever, it doesn’t have to be a full distance, it could be a sprint for someone who’s brand new, or even someone who’s a really advanced athlete and their specialty is a sprint – what you get at the end of that race is the satisfaction of knowing that you accomplished some kind of a goal in order to reach that finish line.  Whether it be a podium finish, or crossing the finish line for the first time, or crossing the finish line after having an extreme amount of adversity.  It’s wonderful to know that the experience of that race is going to be something that is memorable, regardless of how you got there.

Kathy:  Absolutely. In my first Ironman, my Garmin stopped working on about Mile 42 on the bike.  It wasn’t part of the plan, but I just kept going, because what were my choices?  To stop because I didn’t have the technology?  Yes, just keep going, keep moving on, and don’t let that problem define you.  That truly is the key.

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