TriDot Podcast .238

Eating for Energy: How to Get Enough Protein, Fruit, and Veggies

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Intro: This is the TriDot podcast. TriDot uses yourtraining data and genetic profile, combined with predictive analytics andartificial intelligence to optimize your training, giving you better results inless time with fewer injuries. Our podcast is here to educate, inspire, andentertain. We’ll talk all things triathlon with expert coaches and specialguests. Join the conversation and let’s improve together.

Vanessa Ronksley: Welcome to the TriDot podcast everyone! I thinkit's fair to say we're all here because we love the sport of triathlon. A lotof us also want to continuously improve, and we know that what we eat before,during, and after training and racing can have a massive impact on ourperformance and recovery. On today's show, we will be talking about how to makesure we're getting enough protein, fruits, and veggies, and how this can helpus to the next level. Our first guest is the Founder and Chief NutritionOfficer of Fuelin, Scott Tindal. Scott has over 20 years of experience inprofessional sports, and is a nutrition coach to professional triathletes andexecutives. He serves as an expert advisor to companies on nutrition productdevelopment and health optimization. He holds a Masters in Sports and ExerciseMedicine, Bachelors in Physiotherapy, and a postgraduate diploma in SportsPerformance Nutrition. Welcome to the show, Scott!

Scott Tindal: Thanks so much for having me. Third time on the show, and I feel veryhonored to be here. Yeah.

Vanessa:Yeah, well we are super pumped to have you here as well. Our second guest withme today is Jasmine Moezzi. Jasmine is the Founder, President, and Head Coachof the California-based South Bay Squad. She raced collegiately as a member ofthe triathlon team at the University of Southern California, where she receivedher BS in Applied and Computational Mathematics. She is an IRONMAN U CertifiedCoach, and is a Certified Nutrition and Health Coach through the Institute forIntegrative Nutrition. Welcome to the show, Jasmine!

Jasmine Moezzi: Thanks so much for having me! Very excited tobe here and talk all things nutrition.

Vanessa:Awesome, same as me. I'm Vanessa, your Average Triathlete with Elite-LevelEnthusiasm! As usual, we will start things off with our warmup question, moveinto the main set, and then cool down with our Coach Cooldown Tip. I am pumpedfor our set today, so let's get to it!

We'vespoken to sports scientist Andy Blow during several episodes of the podcast tohelp you nail down your hydration and fueling strategy for training and racing.The big takeaway from those episodes with Andy is that there simply isn't aone-size-fits-all approach to race nutrition, and that's why the team atPrecision Fuel and Hydration have developed the Fuel Planner. Head over to precisionfuelandhydration.com to take the Fuel Planner, and get your free personalized fuel andhydration strategy. The plan provides guidelines for how much carbohydrate,sodium, and fluid you should be aiming to consume so that you know your numbersfor your next race. You can then hit those numbers by using the Precision Fueland Hydration product range, which is designed to make it easier for you tokeep track of your intake during racing, as the carb and sodium content perserving is right there on the front of the packaging. While at the AmbassadorCamp in Saint George, I was blown away by the Precision Fuel and Hydrationteam. Having a sweat test was an integral part of my nutrition strategy fortraining and racing, and I have to say that my favorite treat is the PF 30chew, because the mint flavor is next-level. As a TriDot listener, you can usethe code TRIDOT24 to get 10% off your first order of electrolytes and fuelingproducts.

Warm up theme: Time to warm up! Let’s get moving.

Andrew:  Our warmup question for the day is, if youcould only eat one thing for the rest of your life, what would it be? I'mcoming to you first, Scott. What food are you going with here?

Scott:Most people who know me would probably expect me to say small oily fish. Butgiven that it's one food for the rest of my life and every day, I'd probablysay the reality is ice cream.

Vanessa:Oh yeah, I do love ice cream. It's definitely at the top of my list. What aboutyou, Jasmine?

Jasmine:For me it would have to be fruit, because I basically eat it all day throughoutthe day, and I am coined as the “Fruit Queen” with my friends.

Scott:You're making me sound bad, Jasmine. It's terrible, I should have saidsomething like fruit or some type of vegetable given the topic of today. ButI’ve gotta be real!

Jasmine:It's all about balance!

Vanessa:Yeah, I'm going to one-up Jasmine here, because I know that my answer isprobably not very popular. But my first instinct is broccoli, because this issomething that I crave a lot. I did actually test this question out on my kids,and they both said, almost in unison, “General Tso’s tofu!” and I think I haveto agree. So I'm switching my answer. This recipe is something that I makeregularly, almost once every week or two. It's sweet and sour and superdelicious, so I'm going with General Tso’s tofu.

Main set theme: On to the main set. Going in 3…2…1…

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Haveyou ever heard about “eating the rainbow” or the “30-plant food challenge”?These movements exist because eating a balanced diet is important for overallhealth and well-being. But this is not an easy thing to do. As enduranceathletes, getting the right amount of protein, fruits, and veggies might evenbe more important than we think, as it can most definitely impact our training,maybe even how well we absorb our training and how we feel throughout the day.Thankfully, we have Scott and Jasmine here to help us figure out how to besttackle getting adequate nutrients to fuel us for improving our performance. Wewill break this episode into three sections. We will start with protein, moveto veg, and then we'll talk about fruit. I think we need to start off todaywith why is it so hard for people to get in enough of these foods? Jasmine,Scott, do you struggle to get in protein, fruit, and vegetables throughout yourday?

Jasmine:I personally don't. I make sure to eat fruits basically all throughout the day.I have some protein with each of my meals. I'm constantly trying to eat real,whole foods to make sure I'm getting all the proper nutrients and protein,carbs, fruits, veggies, everything in. But it does take a lot more work, so Ijust make sure to meal prep and have everything ready to go.

Vanessa:Scott, how about you?

Scott:Yeah, I think people will say “Oh, you're very cognizant of what you eat.” Andyes, I think that is important. I think there's nothing wrong with beingcognizant and conscious of what you eat in order to maximize the health aspectof it. It obviously can go too far in the wrong direction, but I think yes. Thereason that I manage to hit my overall nutrition is because I'm aware of it andunderstand what I need.

Vanessa:Yeah, I think that's super important. I think another aspect that's reallyimportant in terms of hitting all of those targets is the planning, making surethat you have an abundance of each of those types of foods available andplanned out so that you have something easy to grab when you get hungry orafter your training session or whatever. So Scott, let's actually start withprotein and let's talk about what it is and why we need it.

Scott:Yeah, I think in its simplest form it’s amino acids, but I think for the sakeof this conversation let's talk about food, because I think so many athletesget so confused with the science, and at the end of the day, we're eating food.Look, protein is important for pretty much every physiological process in yourbody, as amino acids pretty much make up all the cells in your body. Mostpeople will think of protein only for muscle, yet it is crucial for bonehealth, hormone production, immunity, and cellular function. So I think it'sreally important for athletes to get out of that myopic sort of muscle focuswhen it comes to protein and think “this helps you a lot more than just purelymuscle.” In terms of you have protein-dominant foods, animal protein comes tomind immediately for most athletes, think beef, chicken, pork, fish, lamb andwhey protein powder – I guess dairy comes into that as well – they're going tobe sort of protein dominant foods. Then of course you have plants that haveprotein as well, and a lot of people forget about that in a way, and a lot ofthese plant proteins I'd probably term carbi-proteins because they do have ahigher combination of protein and carbs together. So you have products likesoy, legumes, pulses, grains and of course just your vegetables. I think theimportant thing people forget, foods like bread and pasta contain decentamounts of protein in them as well, so you can get protein from those, butbecause they have a decent amount of carbs, they get tossed out with theproverbial carb water as well. So when people are scared of carbohydrates, theythen omit products like pasta and bread, even though they can contain decentamounts of protein as I said. Then I guess you have your plant protein or yourplant-containing protein foods. What I mean by that is things like tofu,tempeh, seitan, and plant protein powders. They're sort of things that havebeen put together or manufactured from plant products to create what I wouldterm plant-containing protein foods. I think the density of protein may not bethe same as in animal proteins, and the amino acid composition is often quitedifferent. People will tend to harp on that, but the good news is that the oldway of thinking was that plant proteins were not as good for what we callmyofibrillar protein synthesis or muscle protein synthesis, due to the oftenreduced amounts of amino acids and the type of amino acids within it, and alsothe total amounts of protein within those plant containing foods. However, theway to get around this is generally just eating more of them. So you can getpast this sort of reduction in total protein or reduced amino acid quality,simply by eating more of these plant proteins. It sounds easy, yet as we'regoing to talk about, sometimes that is a challenge itself, especially whenlarge amounts of protein are required for that athlete, either based ontraining load or the actual weight of the athlete. So depending on what theircaloric requirements are, that can pose a problem with just getting enoughprotein in from plant products.

Vanessa:Yeah, I think that's something that I have struggled with in the past, iseating on a plant-based diet, is the volume of food that you require and theamount of fiber that comes along with that is sometimes over the top. So it isdefinitely a challenge if you are trying to eat that kind of way. There aresome things that you have to take into consideration in terms of hitting thosenumbers and staying healthy while doing it. Now I've heard a lot of numbersbeing thrown out there with regards to how many grams of protein people needbefore and after training sessions. I'm really curious, is there a limit to howmuch protein our bodies can actually absorb at one time, and if we take in toomuch at one time, is this safe? What do you think Scott?

Scott:Yeah, the limit appears to actually be quite unclear, despite what a lot ofpeople will say on social media. There was a recent study by Trommelen et al,some Dutch investigators, and they were investigating 100 grams of proteinfeeds versus 25 grams versus a control of zero. And they showed that theresponse to those large feeds continues for a very, very long time, and theprocess of muscle protein synthesis is certainly increased over time withlarger feeds compared to smaller feeds. So effectively, the notion that we canonly utilize a small amount of protein and the extra is oxidized and wastedappears to be wrong. And the issue with that was probably the way in which thestudies were set up in terms of the methodology, because they only studied itfor four to six hours. So what it shows is the body is incredible and clever,and this new research shows that the digestion process and utilization of theseamino acids or proteins extends way beyond that initial peak period of, say,two to four hours as once previously thought. It's not to say that we should beeating huge protein meals, as that is often not practical. It just says thenotion of protein pulsing throughout the day is not necessarily required forthe reasons previously thought. The pulsing is to maximize muscle proteinsynthesis after certain sessions. You could say yes, definitely try and eat 30to 40 grams of protein after a session to maximize that muscle side of things,but also recovery, immunity, bone function, hormone regulation, cellularfunction, and whatnot. Yet most importantly, the pulsing of protein is more todo with ensuring you get the total amount of protein that you require for theentire day. And that's a practical reason, because yes you could go and eat 100grams of protein, which is the equivalent of half a kilo of chicken, but you'reprobably not going to feel too good after that. And if you've got a secondsession in the day, or you've got to go to work, having that amount of proteinin your body is going to be tough. And then you think, “Is that going to comeat the cost of other macronutrients, i.e. carbs and fats?” Particularly carbs,because you're so full, do you now get your vegetables and your fruits in, yourgrains, your rices, and whatever else that you need? You asked about amounts.At Fuelin, we would be recommending endurance athletes consume somewherebetween 2 and 3 grams per kilo of body weight. Obviously there are someindividual differences there, athletes may go a little bit lower or a littlebit higher. But we recommend this as a safe target, and one that will result insignificant positive effects on the athlete, once they're doing it for a numberof consecutive weeks and months. I want to emphasize that it is not like onemeal after a weight session or a big run of high protein is not going to doanything. One day of it probably not going to do too much either. It's weeksand months, it's consistency. That's why we talk about like 90 days as aminimum, three months to really dial in to what you're doing for a long periodof time.

Vanessa:It sounds exactly like training and the benefits that we get from training,that the more consistent you are, the better performance you're going to haveover the long term. It's nice to hear that parallels in our nutrition as well.On the flip side of having an overload of protein, which might not necessarilybe the case as you've just said, protein deficiency is real and can impact ourtraining. So Jasmine, is there a way to know that we're getting enough protein,and are there any signs that might indicate we're not getting enough of it?

Jasmine:Yeah. So for me, I think I pay a lot of attention to just kind of how my bodyis feeling recovery-wise after my sessions. How I am sleeping, if I'm havingrestless sleep. My cognitive function isn't as sharp as it usually is. I'mlosing some muscle mass or changes in my body composition. I do get thatchecked, I work with a personal trainer so I make sure I'm getting that checkedto make sure I'm not gaining too much muscle and also not losing too much ofit, so my weight and muscle mass is staying relatively where it should be. IfI'm having more brittle nails or hair, or I'm feeling more fatigued orsluggish, then that's usually when either me or my athletes up our proteinintake a bit and sometimes even some carbs to try to make sure we have enoughnutrition to combat all the training we're doing. Those are kind of the signs Ilook out for, and just really listening to my body when I feel like I reallyneed some extra fuel in my system.

Scott:Can I just add to that? So obviously those signs and symptoms that Jasmine hasdescribed also relate to a general low energy availability, or LEA as a lot ofathletes will become familiar with that term. That also relates to just totalcalories as much as anything, so signs and symptoms of restless sleep orinability to sleep, insomnia, lack of clear thought that Jasmine described,obviously muscle tissue loss. And obviously, if you're losing body fat, thatwould show that you're in a caloric deficit as well. Brittle nails, hair isprobably a clear sign that there are some significant issues going on,potentially from a hormonal perspective related to that under-fueling. Feelinglazy, sluggish, inconsistencies in training, what is being described there areclassic signs and symptoms of low energy availability, then moving into what wecall RED-S or relative energy deficiency in sport, which is the syndrome thatsort of encompasses a lot of those signs and symptoms that were described.Protein deficiency is probably very rare actually, because if you look at theWorld Health Organization, it's a very low recommendation to allow anindividual to survive, so 0.8 grams per kilo of body weight. Now that's tosurvive. It's very rare for an individual to probably take in less than thatamount and create protein deficiency unless they've got severe malnutrition.What we will see though, probably as a result of not taking in an adequateamount of total calories, which would include protein, fats, and carbohydrates,is that those signs and symptoms would start to exist. So those are very realand they do exist. They don't affect everyone, but they will affect males andfemales. So certainly be aware of those signs or symptoms that Jasminedescribed. They need to be relayed to your coach and talked about, and thenreach out to a health professional as well, whether that be a dietician,registered nutritionist, your doctor, your primary care physician, and start tolook at what's actually happening. But I will stress that that is most likelylow energy availability that is underpinning those types of signs and symptoms.Sorry, it's just something that we're very passionate about at Fuelin, andthere's a lot of talk and we do a lot of talks about this. So I just want toreally emphasize that for athletes out there who may be susceptible to some ofthese, or experiencing some of these, it's not necessarily just due to protein.

Vanessa:Yes, and we have done a number of podcasts that have featured Dr. KristaAustin, and she has talked about RED-S both for males and females. So if anyoneis exhibiting any of those symptoms, first of all go see your primary carephysician, and also have a listen to those podcasts. Now Scott, what tips doyou use for making sure you get enough protein throughout the day?

Scott:Well, I think firstly what I would always encourage athletes is to understandhow much they need, so as I mentioned, a target of around 2 to 3 grams per kiloof body weight. So you can do that as a simple calculation and start to do it.Another good way is to think about your weight in pounds, and that would be agood target per day in grams to hit. So if you're a 160-pound athlete, aim foraround 160 grams a day. That's just a really nice way. Now obviously then youneed to start to understand protein and where it comes from. There's three tipsI'd give. Start early in the day so you're not chasing your tail in theevening, so include protein from the word “go”. Breakfast certainly shouldinclude a decent amount of protein. A simple thing to think about is to aim fora hand of protein at main meals. So I'm actually holding up my hand, butdepending on the size of your hand will obviously depend on how much proteinthat sort of represents. But generally speaking, a hand of protein, if it's thethickness of a deck of cards, should weigh around 200 grams or 7 ounces. Thatwill provide you with around 40 grams of protein. That's a really nice visualtip for people, have like a piece of chicken, line it up against your hand,maybe weigh it and go, “Oh yeah, it does weigh around 200 grams or 7 ounces.”That's got about 40 grams of protein. If you're a 160-athlete, you need fourhands of protein in a day, simple as that. You start thinking of hands ofprotein in a day, and that's a really nice way for a beginner to start to thinkabout it, not be so concerned about grams, but just thinking about hands. Thenthe last point I would say is learn your food, so you begin to understand theprotein content of what you're eating. That way you mix meals, they’re like apuzzle you put together to hit your targets. Nutritional education is reallyparamount to actually improving your nutrition. The more you can learn, thebetter you're going to be.

Vanessa:Absolutely.

Scott:And obviously go to trusted sources is what I would say. So make sure youreducation is from trusted sources, and maybe not just from some influencers onInstagram.

Vanessa:Yes. Now I want to hear from both of you on this next one. What are yourfavorite sources of protein, and how do you enjoy eating them? Scott, let'shear what you have to say.

Scott:Americans don't eat lamb very often, but a leg of lamb slow-roasted with aslow-roasted pumpkin, and then I generally reverse sear it, so I'll stick it onthe grill once it's sort of all lovely melted and soft. I'll reverse sear itand then generally eat that, that's typically, my favorite protein meal.

Vanessa:Mm, that sounds really delicious. Jasmine, what about you?

Jasmine:I love lentils. I'm Persian, so we use lentils in a lot of things as well aschickpeas. I also love green peas. It's kind of hard to choose. I was trying tonarrow it down, but I would say those are probably my top three. And I lovepotatoes, so I'll always eat them with different types of potatoes, whetherthey're regular potatoes, sweet potatoes, any potatoes. Or rice, I'm big onrice as well. Then I love having it with some mushrooms and veggies and things.That's normally my little go-to dish.

Vanessa:I would have to say that my favorite, out of red lentils and green lentils, Ithink mine is definitely the green lentils. I have this one recipe that isreally amazing, it's like a French lentil stew, and it is just so delicious andheartwarming, and it's so flavorful that I could eat that endlessly, that's forsure.

Jasmine:That sounds so good, I'm going to have to get that recipe for you.

Vanessa:Oh yeah, for sure I will send it to you. Absolutely. I think the next part ofour chat is going to be my favorite, because I love vegetables. With greatenthusiasm, in fact. I'm sure that most people can understand that most of mylife is lived very enthusiastically, and I feel very, very much the same aboutveggies. There's just so many tastes and textures and variety, and they playsuch an important part of our overall health. So Jasmine, let's start out withthis question, why is it important that we eat veggies?

Jasmine:Veggies, I love them too, so I totally feel your enthusiasm with it. For meespecially, I kind of had some pretty severe GI issues for a while, and they’vehelped me tremendously with digestion and keeping me full throughout the day,providing me with a ton of micronutrients like vitamins and minerals, helpingboost my immune system. And then it depends obviously if you eat them raw orcooked, but if you have salads or raw veggies, they can help with hydration aswell. There's just so many benefits to veggies, especially for athletes.Obviously not eating like a billion of them in one sitting because that canmake you a little gassy, so you want to make sure you have a good balance withit. Because sometimes I get carried away and then I'm like, oh, that was maybea little bit too much. But I definitely eat a lot of veggies on my plate.

Vanessa:I know that many food guides recommend getting a certain amount of veggies perday. There's different recommendations based on what country you're in. MyPlatein the US suggests anywhere from two to four cups. The Canada Food Guidedoesn't necessarily give a specific number, but they suggest that most of yourdiet comes from fruits and vegetables, and 50% of your plate surface isallocated to fruits and veggies. In Australia the recommendation is fiveservings. Knowing the numbers is one thing, but then getting enough is acompletely different story. So I'm wondering, do endurance athletes requiremore than these recommended values, and are there any positive impacts ontraining if we hit our targets in this area?

Scott:Yeah, for some athletes with huge caloric requirements, eating more vegetablescan be an issue due to lower caloric density. That's what we're talking aboutbefore, and exactly what Jasmine just said. This notion of eating clean cansometimes cause issues with what I described before low energy availability. Sothis concept of orthorexia, or that obsession with only eating clean can bedamaging to the best-intended athlete. When sugar is claimed to be bad for you,yet the context is completely left out, that's where it becomes problematic. Ithink what's really important here is to differentiate between “gen pop” andwhat the average – if we're saying American or Australian – like what theaverage Australian or American needs. Yes, lots and lots of vegetables. Andyes, athletes need that as well. But we then need to layer in, if you are anathlete who is training a lot, that's when you need to consider other foodoptions as well to get your total calories in. So do not shy away from bread,pasta, and sugar. We know that carbohydrates are not to make you go fast.Maltodextrin, glucose, fructose. Don't be afraid of those products, becausethey're going to provide you with calories when they're required. So I think weare 100% all over recommending you fruits and veggies to Fuelin athletes. But Ithink we also are very cognizant of when calories are required, and that isgoing to be really important to avoid that low energy availability. So lookingat the situation of the individual athlete is important, and as I said, atFuelin we encourage athletes to hit six to nine servings of fruit and veg perday as a blanket statement, because most athletes and individuals will benefitfrom it. Yet we also acknowledge that processed and ultra-processed foods arecritical to total caloric requirements for many of the top-performing athletesthat we work with.

Vanessa:That's great.

Scott:As I will say, fruit and veg absolutely should fill up the majority of yourplate. But there's also going to be some timing issues around that as Jasminehinted at. You can't go and eat half a kilo of beans and lentils before goingout and doing a Z3 brick. You are going to end up on the wrong side if you dothat. So think of timing your fruit and veg, and the types of foods andcarbohydrates and proteins you're consuming is a really important considerationfor athletes. Don't be don't be so black-and-white in your thinking that, “Thisis the way it is, and this is the only way it is.” I think that's reallyimportant. Be malleable in your approach to nutrition.

Vanessa:I'm giggling a little bit, because I've been in that exact situation where Iate way too many lentils and vegetables and went out for a run and found myselfin a disastrous situation. So I hope no one else goes there.

Jasmine:And it's really about training your gut to get used to the foods you're eatingtoo. I have some athletes that do eat a higher fiber content, but they're kindof used to it. I'm not saying it's still the best idea, but some athletes cando better at that than others. But it's really about training your gut, and notdoing anything super different than what you're used to right before going outfor a training ride or run. Because yeah, that probably won't feel verypleasant while you're out there.

Scott:But you're absolutely right, Jasmine, what you're saying is correct. If that issomething you do consistently, you will probably find that things becomeeasier, and that's the whole concept of what we do at Fuelin. We even give thatrecommendation, that if you want to practice gut training, 10 to 15 or 20minutes before the session, eat your food. Fill your gut up, because that'sgoing to send messages to the brain about that distension in the gut and howyou're coping with that. How does that go from gastric emptying from the gut orthe stomach into the intestine? How do you cope with that? And over time, youcan train your gut to get better at dealing with that sensation of fullness,that ability to digest the food, to improve what is happening from anintestinal perspective. Yes, a lot of it is theoretical, but we know that froma practical side, when athletes do it consistently, they get better. It'ssmall, incremental consistency that brings the results. So like fiber's notbad. I get this all the time like, “I can't eat any of that.” And it's like,“No, you can have some fiber before going out and doing a session. It's goingto depend on what you're usually used to.” And yes, going into race day, whenyou're carbohydrate loading, you can't eat heaps of fruit and veg for acarbohydrate load when you're trying to get 10 to 12 grams of carbohydrate perkilo of body weight. It’s physically impossible. I will challenge anyone whocan do that, unless they're a super light athlete. It's just nearly impossible.

Jasmine:That would be so impressive. Yeah.

Scott:So impressive. So then you are using these so-called “bad foods” to maximizeperformance. So yes, reducing fiber around races and those really hard sessionsis important, but you don't have to remove fiber all the time, even if you dohave some hard sessions during the week. As Jasmine said, try it. See how yougo, you might be surprised. It may actually start to work in your favor.

Vanessa:  Absolutely. Now I'm curious about this. Iknow the fiber content doesn't necessarily change when you cook differentfoods. But Jasmine, you talked about this a little bit earlier about eating rawversus cooked vegetables, and does this affect the nutrient levels of veggies,or even how it's absorbed in the body?

Jasmine:It can a little bit. Usually when you cook it, it does bring it down a bit. Idon't think it's anything so drastic that people would have to worry about.It's more like the amount of hydration they're getting from it. But it dependson the athlete or the person, because some people who have more sensitive guts,they might not do as well with raw veggies, that might be a little bit tooaggressive on their GI system. Whereas for others, they prefer having moresalads and raw foods, and they tend to absorb that better. So I think that'skind of more dependent on the athlete and the individual. I eat both, like I'llhave a lot of salads throughout the day, and then I'll have cooked veggies atnight. But like Scott said, I probably won't have a giant bowl of salad andthen go for my big workout. But I love having it before my dinner or something,or just adding some raw spinach leaves to my bowl of whatever cooked veggiesand other things I'm having. It kind of just depends on what my workout is forthe day. But I think incorporating both raw and cooked veggies are superbeneficial, and have a lot of great positive effects both ways.

Vanessa:Awesome, that's great. Now I think this is the question that we've all beenwaiting to hear about. What tips and tricks do you have for getting moreveggies into breakfast, lunch, dinners, and snacks? Scott, let's start withyou.

Scott:For breakfast, I would say start with something simple like a simple sidesalad. Just a handful of baby spinach, a handful of arugula, a couple ofchopped cherry tomatoes, a bit of balsamic, some parmesan flakes over the top.And put it with your eggs. Then maybe if you've got another serving of protein,whether that be some tofu, some chicken, some sausages, small oily fish – gottadrop that in there, sardines – whatever it is that you're eating to get thattotal protein up. That's a really easy way, it becomes like your own littlecafeteria at home. Don't be afraid. And to Jasmine’s point, if you've got –Ilove in America you've got those big tubs of baby spinach or arugula, they'relike four gallons big, and you just dunk your hand in, grab two fists, and it'son your plate. You've got two serves of great salad, leafy greens, in straightaway. If you can't handle the thought of raw salad in the morning, try maybegrating some zucchini straight into a pan with a little bit of olive oil. Maybethe spinach, wilt it down, crack in a couple of eggs, whisk it up, you've gotan egg scramble with veggies in it. Yeah, you're breaking down what we call thefood matrix, so you are going to lose a little bit of that quality of fiber,but at least you're still getting it. You're not going to lose all thenutrients. As Jasmine said, you're still getting the benefits. But maybe it'sjust an easy way to start to introduce those veggies in the morning. Like azucchini hash, most people have never done it, but you put it in the pan, andyou do it with a little bit of butter or olive oil and you're like, “Oh my god,this is delicious!” Couple bits of toast and you're good. Three minutes, andyou've got a couple of servings of veggies in there, you've got your protein, you'vegot your carbs, and away you go.

Vanessa:Yeah. You know, my mom eats a massive salad for breakfast every single morning,so that's not foreign to me. But I do love the idea of just grating somezucchini in there, that's a really good idea. And as soon as you do it, thenyou become more in tune with doing it on a regular basis, because like yousaid, it's actually very delicious. You just have to get past that initialthought of “I eat carbs and protein for breakfast." Also when you thinkabout it, if you go to a restaurant for breakfast, chances are there's going tobe some kind of vegetable on your plate. Like if you're ordering a scramble ora breakfast burrito, there's veggies in there. So do it at home too, people.

Scott:I think to your point though, what I would say to everyone listening to thispodcast, is just try it. I think there's also this apprehension of cooking. “OhI don't know how to do that because I'm not a very good cook.” Okay, eggs youcan stuff up, but it's pretty hard. But grating a zucchini, a squash, chop upsome eggplant and stick it in the pan and crack in your scrambled eggs – it'sjust a whole different meal from just a couple of boring scrambled eggs. Sojust give it a go.

Vanessa:I agree. I think as triathletes, we actually love being in control.

Scott:Yeah, that's an understatement. So this is another way to get control. Yeah,suddenly you're cooking, and you're loving it.

Vanessa:That's so true. Jasmine, what about you? How do you get your veggies inthroughout the day?

Jasmine:I just add veggies to every meal that I'm eating, whether it's just taking ahandful of raw leafy greens and throwing it in. Even if it’s a cooked meal,I'll just throw it in there. Or if I'm already cooking something I’ll justthrow some veggies in there. In the morning I probably eat a lot more fruit,and then throughout the day is when I eat my salads and my veggies and thingslike that and just kind of snack on fruit throughout the day. But yeah, there'salways some kind of fruit or veggie I'm eating all day long, and I just makesure to meal prep anything that's cooked. If it's a salad, prepare even a lotof the salad ingredients beforehand so that it's just kind of ready to go, easyto put together the day of. Yeah, just trying to basically eat the rainbowevery day.

Vanessa:I find that even if I'm making a smoothie or something, I'll always grab acouple handfuls of spinach and just slap it in the blender to that extra greenveg in there. Another thing that I do, which my husband always rolls his eyesat me, is whenever there's a recipe I over-add vegetables. I'll add way morethan what's called for. If it says two cups, you can guarantee there's three orfour going in there. And then if the recipe doesn't necessarily call for kaleor spinach, I am often putting that in there anyways. You can't taste it, itdoesn't really change the texture very much, it gets all nice and wilty, andit's just delicious. So that's a couple of things that I do. Just throw it in,you never know. Now I think we've given veggies some pretty good air time, so Ithink we should switch it over to fruit. Some good guides lump fruits andveggies into one category, and others separate them out. So I'm curious, isthat knowledge based on the nutrient profile of these different fruits? Howdoes that work in terms of separating fruits and vegetables? What do you think,Jasmine?

Jasmine:  I think fruits are just higher in naturalsugars and calories than vegetables, but they both are very rich in fiber,vitamins, minerals, and antioxidants. I personally eat a lot of fruitthroughout the day, just to get all that extra antioxidant, and I’ve noticed itreally does help me with my recovery after workouts and stuff. Then veggies, Ijust eat it as much as I can, obviously being mindful of the fiber content inboth of them. But their nutrient profiles aren't crazy different, there are justthose few differences with like the natural sugars and calories.

Vanessa:What about you, Scott?

Scott:From a micronutrient perspective, when you compare the ten most commonlyconsumed vegetables versus fruits in America, vegetables scored higher on whatwe call the Aggregate Nutrient Density Index, and as Jasmine said, containedfewer calories and more fiber than fruits. Vegetables tend to be better sourcesof overall micronutrients than fruits, although fruits score higher inantioxidant content. They will have higher amounts of sugar, but I will throw a“but” in there, that sugar is not bad. I have read so much crap on the internetand social media about bananas being bad for you.

Jasmine:Oh my god, drives me nuts.

Scott:And you're like, “Seriously?” I saw something the other day, some cardiologisttalking about fruit, and that it was terrible for you because it's got sugar init. It's like, “Oh my god, get a grip man!”

Vanessa:  Are there some fruits that we should eat lessof because they're higher in certain sugars? Or is it just like, “Go for it,eat as much fruit as you want in any quantity.” What do you think about thatone?

Scott:Yeah, you’ve got to remember that not all fruits are created equal. You havethings like berries which you could eat as many as you want, and very low incarbohydrates, and probably going to have minimal impact in terms of totalcalories as well. Whereas a mango or pineapple, if you eat a whole one of that,it is going to have significantly more carbohydrate than berries. Now again, itcomes down to the individual athlete and what they need. It is going to comedown to calories in the end, and total energy intake, and depending on ifyou're trying to improve body composition, lose weight, then total calories isgoing to matter. Now where those calories come from, more often than not theywill come from carbohydrates because you can consume more carbohydrates. Andyeah, if you're eating ten mangos a day and three pineapples, and packing in aheap of bread and everything else, that's probably going to become a problem.But it's not the mango or the pineapple that's the problem, it's just thequantity of what you're eating. I know these blood sugar glucose monitors areall the rage, especially in America and Australia. Can I just reinforce that itis a normal response to see blood sugars go up when you eat a piece of fruit.When you eat a banana you will see a rise in blood sugars, same as if you eat apineapple. But it will come down as well, that's a normal response. As long asit comes down within two hours, back to your baseline measure, you are normal.You do not need to avoid that banana or that piece of pineapple.

Vanessa:Yeah, it's interesting because our body has a mechanism for dealing with thatsituation, and that's why we eat food in the first place is so that our glucoselevels rise and so that we have this insulin response to pull that glucose intothe cell. So just like you said, it's normal, and it should happen. So enjoyyour fruit, people! That's the bottom line, enjoy it.

Scott:I can guarantee now, if you eat like Jasmine, if you eat a lot more fruit andveg, in the long term you're definitely going to be a healthier individual.Period.

Vanessa:I'm curious, Scott, what purpose can the fruit actually serve in terms of ourtraining? And is there a time of day that you recommend eating fruit that mightbe more beneficial for the impact that it can have on that training session?

Scott:We tend to recommend it pre-workout or as a snack, purely due to its ease ofconsumption. Some come pre-wrapped. Think of a banana, it's perfect, it comesin its own little wrapper. And the fact that most fruits have a decent amountof carbs in them, again that's important because certainly as a pre workoutsnack, that's going to be important to performance. There are times where I'llpersonally recommend fruit before bed, to provide carbs to help with sleep andmicronutrients such as B vitamins and magnesium, often paired with some type ofprotein source such as yogurt. That can often be a really effective strategy ifsomeone is struggling with sleep and needs to get extra calories and whatnot. Ithink for most athletes, just focus on having two pieces of fruit per day astheir minimum, wherever you can get it in. Focus on that, first and foremost.Fruit bowl on the desk or on the kitchen table is a great place to start. Ifyou set up your environment so that you see what you need on a daily basis, thosehabits are going to be easier. If you always see apples and bananas in front ofyou, you're probably likely to pick it up and eat it. If that bowl has packetsof chips in it or chocolate, you're probably going to eat the chips or thechocolate. So set up your environment to win.

Vanessa:Yeah, I love that. I think there's actually a study that emphasized thatprocess right there. People who are deemed as being healthier often had agreater variety of fruits and veg in their fruit bowl on the counter, becauseif you see it like you said, you're more likely to eat it. Another tip thatsomeone had suggested is put your fruit and vegetables in glass containers thatare transparent in your fridge, so that you're more likely to grab those firstbecause you can actually see them. I think that's wonderful, keep as manyfruits and veg on the counter as possible so you see them, you're going to eatthem. Then you're going to reap the benefits over time with that consistencyaspect.

Scott:You mentioned that habit there, Vanessa. I'm sure you're both aware of JamesClear, he wrote the book “Atomic Habits”. He talks about that actually in thebook, organize your fridge. You organize in terms of having good quality foodsavailable in your pantry and fridge, but also think about the way in which it'spresented. The foods that you want to eat the most, put them at the front ofthe fridge at eye level so that as soon as you open the fridge, you see what itis that you actually want to make yourself eat. It's such a simple habit, butwhen you do it it's actually incredibly effective.

Vanessa:Yeah. And I'm just thinking too, when you have little kids that you want toencourage to eat healthier things, put those at THEIR eye level, notnecessarily your eye level, because that's where they look. They don't look up,they only look at what’s right in front of them.

Jasmine:Seeing is believing.

Scott:Exactly.

Vanessa:What is your favorite fruit?

Jasmine:Pomegranates are my favorite fruit. It has so many antioxidants, and it'sactually amazing for athletes because it's a great blood-builder, and it has somany trace minerals, and it's great for hormones too. Especially for us ladies,we need a little help with that. That definitely is my go-to. It's been myfavorite fruit since I was a kid, and I'm just very happy that I'm still justas in love with it.

Vanessa:I do love pomegranates. They're just like these little bursts of joy. Whatabout you, Scott?

Scott:Yeah, mangos are certainly favorites of mine. I think living in Australia, youcan't go past a good Aussie mango. Although I'm often compared to a monkey bymy partner Mel, due to the number of bananas that I consume throughout theweek. So it's either going to be mangoes or bananas I think.

Cool down theme: Great set everyone! Let’s cool down.

Vanessa Ronksley: Well, it is my pleasure to be bringing you thecooldown today, everybody. I'm Vanessa, your Average Translate with Elite-LevelEnthusiasm! Jason McFaul is joining us today to give us a Coach Cooldown Tip.He is a tenured professor of English, specializing in teaching criticalthinking and mental models at Mt. San Antonio College in Walnut, California. Heis also very passionate about the sport of triathlon, and he is lucky enough totrain in Chino Hills State Park, which happens to be right outside his backdoor. He comes from a strong athletic pedigree, as his dad was a bike racer andhis mom was a marathoner, which allows us all to have a better understanding ofhow he has 34 full-distance tri finishes and two Kona qualifications to hisname, how he qualified for a pro card in 2014, and also holds a Boston Marathonfinish time of 2:59:30. Jason has been coaching the sport of triathlon for overa decade, with the athletes finishing their first triathlons, all the way tothose getting PR's at 70.3s and full-distance IRONMANs, in addition to Konaqualifiers. He has been coaching with TriDot for almost two years, and hisspecialty is sports psychology. One of his magical powers as a coach is turningrun-haters into run-lovers.  Welcome tothe show, Jason!

Jason McFaul: Thank you so much, Vanessa, it's an honor to be here.

Vanessa:Well, we're honored to have you here, and I think we have a pretty amazingstory that we need to share with everyone before we get to our tip today. Canyou please enlighten us as to how you not only fell asleep on a bus in HongKong, but when you woke up it was dark, and you were in an abandoned bus in ayard with hundreds of other red buses? I'm not sure about you, but this soundslike the beginning of a horror movie to me.

Jason:The short version is I had just flown into Hong Kong from I think Australia,and I was exhausted. I got on one of those sort of iconic red double-deckerHong Kong buses, and the seats are really big, and I just sunk into my seat. Ididn't intend to fall asleep, but I completely fell asleep. It was daytime whenI got on the bus, but when I awoke it was dark. I looked around and it was darkinside the bus, and then I looked out the window and I just saw a whole bunchof other red buses. And I thought, “Oh, this is a problem.” So I got up and Iwas able to open the bus door, and when I exited it was just row after rowafter row of these red buses, I was in this bus yard. I finally saw a perimeterfence, so I walked up to the fence, and of course on the other end of the fencewas a guard whose back was to me, because he's trying to keep people fromcoming in. So I just kind of lightly tapped on the fence and he turned around,he was startled. And I don't speak Cantonese, and he starts rattling off a bunchof Cantonese at me. And I just go, “I'm sorry, I'm stuck in here! Can youplease let me out?” And he didn't seem happy at all, but finally unlocked thegate. I don't know what he said, but I think he just said, “Get the heck out ofhere buddy.” Which was fine, I was happy to leave.

Vanessa:Thank you for sharing that! Let's talk about the tip that you have for all ofus today.

Jason: Okay,the tip today is about identity. We very likely have different identities. Somepeople are a mom, or a dad, or an accountant, an attorney, a friend, a partner.Within the context of triathlon, I find that there are a variety of identitiesthat people can embrace, but three big ones are participant, triathlete, andracer. To offer an example, what happens when we embrace one of theseidentities is that it typically informs how we're going to train, how we'regoing to “behave” in a race, how we're going to approach the sport. So when Iwas a participant, I remember it was just a standalone half-marathon in SanDiego. My dad was a bike racer and he was there to support me, and hismentality was, “This is 13.1 miles. You're going to go as fast as you can, andyou're going to fall over at the end, and you can't walk anymore once you crossthe finish.” But I was a participant, so I didn't have any intention of racing.I remember it was really cold that morning so I kept my sweatpants on, becausewhy would I want to be uncomfortable? I just want to have a good time. I'm aparticipant, I want to have fun. And I remember getting to the first aidstation at mile one, and they had a whole bunch of gels. They were handing outgels and I thought, “Oh my gosh, these are a dollar each!” So I was like, “CanI have two?” And they were like, “Take as many as you like!” So I filled up mypocket, and then I got to the next one, and I filled up my other pocket, andthen I got to the next aid station. By the time I finished, I ended up eatingprobably seven or eight gels, but I think I had 14 or 15 of those gels in mypockets.

Vanessa:And stuffed in your pants, right?

Jason:Oh completely! I was holding some in my hands. My dad goes, “What's all thatstuff? What are you carrying with you?” And I go, “Dad, they're giving outthese gels for free!” And he's just like, “What's the matter with you?” So hisidentity for a very long time was a racer, he was a bike racer. And for a verylong time, I was a participant in triathlon, and in that case thathalf-marathon, and there's nothing the matter with that. I love the participantmentality. It's just, “Go out there and have a good time,” and it becomes apart of lifestyle. But on the flip side, let's go to the other extreme. Whenthe person decides, “Okay, I'm a racer.” Well, that helps inform other thingsabout the way we train and the way we prioritize our training. Once I finallygot to that other side and identified as a racer – I remember agonizing, twice,over being “the first loser”, the first person not to get a Kona-qualifyingslot. And I would look at the time and I'd be like, “Three minutes, where couldI have gotten these three minutes?” And finally my wife was just like, “Youkeep talking about these three minutes. I've seen the way you go through theseaid stations, and you slow down. You're running a good pace and then you slowdown and you're basically walking.” And I go, “Well, I need to get the fuelinto me.” And she goes, “But other people, they run through, and somehowthey're getting the fuel.” So she was actually thinking more like a racer thanI was, and I was like, “Well, I need to work on that.” And she goes, “Well,let's do it right now.” So she got a card table and set it out in the frontdriveway, she got a bunch of Dixie cups and filled them with water. Our dog,Kona, was out there with her and she was like, “Okay, go! Run by.” And I and Ikept trying to do it and I was splashing water everywhere and she's like, “Useyour pincers!” I was like, “I don't even know, what is that?” And she's like,“These two fingers, your second finger and your thumb. Use those, squeeze thecup!” So I kept working on it, my neighbors thought I was nuts and probably byextension thought she was nuts too. But that's the type of stuff that we dowhen we identify as a racer. It's not better than being a participant, it'sjust different. We spend so much time and so much money in this sport, weshould probably know who we want to be, or who we are, so that it can help usattain the goals that we really want for ourselves.

Outro:Thanks for joining us. Make sure to subscribe and share the TriDot podcast withyour triathlon crew. For more great tri content and community, connect with uson Facebook, YouTube, and Instagram. Ready to optimize your training? Head totridot.com and start your free trial today! TriDot – the obvious and automaticchoice for triathlon training.

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