Revisiting Learning From the Pros: Things to Emulate, and Things We Shouldn’t

TriDot Podcast Episode 266

Revisiting Learning From The Pros - Things to Emulate and Things We Shouldn't

Intro: This is the TriDot podcast. TriDot uses your training data and genetic profile, combined with predictive analytics and artificial intelligence to optimize your training, giving you better results in less time with fewer injuries. Our podcast is here to educate, inspire, and entertain. We’ll talk all things triathlon with expert coaches and special guests. Join the conversation and let’s improve together.

Andrew Harley: Welcome to the TriDot Podcast. Today is a revisiting episode, which is a TriDot Podcast episode where we listen to an older TriDot Podcast episode. It's kind of, sort of, our version of a rerun, but it's a rerun with a purpose, guys. A rerun with a purpose. We have almost 300 episodes of the TriDot Podcast and some of our listeners have been with us from day one. Some have discovered us at various points along the way. So every so often we like to revisit an older episode that we think has just some extra special meaning, some extra special value, and make sure our newer listeners get to catch it and our older listeners can catch it again. And the episode we are revisiting today is episode 106. It was called Learning from the Pros - Things to Emulate and Things We Shouldn't. It originally aired on October 4th of 2021. So a little over 3 years ago today. And we're going to have a great time listening to this. What we're going to do is a fresh intro, a fresh warmup, and a fresh cool down. But the main set of today's show will be me and y'all and one of our TriDot coaches re-listening to that older episode. The coach with me for this is Ryan Tibball. Ryan has a BS in Biomedical Sciences from Texas A&M University and Respiratory Care from UT Health Center at San Antonio. He serves as the Head Power Cycle Coach at Lifetime Fitness and is a certified CrossFit coach and a Pose Method Certified Run Coach. Ryan is a multiple-time IRONMAN finisher and has been coaching with TriDot since 2015. He is even more involved with the TriDot team now as a TriDot business coach and a Coach Connect advisor. He is the guy responsible for matching coaches with TriDot athletes who want a TriDot coach. Coach Ryan, thanks for joining me on the show today for this revisiting. You excited for this topic?

Ryan Tibball: Yeah, absolutely. And thanks again for being here. It’s hard to believe, wow, not really hard to believe, honestly. 300, almost 300 episodes. This is so exciting. We are getting very, very close. I am so excited, because the world championships have just happened for the ladies, and the men, by the time this airs, has happened. So, this is going to be fun, definitely.

Andrew: Ryan, the athletes in our audience who listen to the show every week may or may not have picked up on the fact that you are on the show for the third time in about five or six weeks, I think. You came on to visit with us about Vanessa Ronksley's race in Nice, France. You came on for a great coaching topic a couple episodes back, and you're on again. And I got to be honest, Ryan, the reason you're on the show this week with me, is that me and you are two of the only staff members from TriDot not in Kona right now. So we are the ones doing this week’s podcast. How do you feel about that being why you're back on?

Ryan: I ain't going to lie, I have a little bit of FOMO not being in Kona, but you know what, I am enjoying the coverage that the team and staff are providing us. It's so awesome. But at the same time, hey, I'm here again. And that's what I'm actually really excited about to end my week here as we get prepared and watching for the world championship men. This is going to be fun; I love it.

Andrew: Well, I am Andrew, the average triathlete, voice of the people, and captain of the middle of the pack. As always, we'll start with our warmup question. Ryan and I will revisit the same warmup question from episode 106. We'll move on to our main set, where we listen in to that main set, talking about what we can and can't learn from the pros. And then we'll wind down with our cool down where Ryan and I will kind of give some fresh thoughts on what we think of this episode. Lots of good stuff. Let's get to it.

Warm up theme: Time to warm up! Let’s get moving.

Andrew: When we revisit a podcast episode, we also brush up on whatever the warmup question was for that day. On episode 106, the warmup question was this: it was, “From all of the pro triathletes in the Tri field, they all have their own custom tri kit they race in, and what is your favorite tri kit being worn in the pro field today?” At the time we recorded this episode, I had Matt Bach and Elizabeth James on the show with me. Matt Bach, he gave a shout out to Kristian Blummenfelt. Specifically, he liked how bold Kristian is in wearing an all-white kit at the races. A little bit more see-through coming out of the water, but Kristian does not care. He also gave a shout out to Daniela Ryf, especially her red kit. When she wore a red kit, he really liked it. It helped her personify her Angry Bird nickname. Elizabeth James gave a shout out to Emma Pallant-Browne because she really likes the black, neon pink, neon blue kits that Emma wears. On the men's side, Elizabeth gave a shout out to Jan Frodeno. Just saying he always looks sharp and incredibly professional when he's racing. Very clean kits back when Jan was in the pro field. He's retired since this episode came out 3 years ago. I mentioned Sam Long the last time this show aired. He always has something fun with pink that matches his personality. Ryan, this question over to you. Kits evolve every year. A lot of the pros are wearing different stuff in the field than they did 3 years ago. Whose kits right now in the year 2024 are catching your eye, Ryan Tibball?

Ryan: I had to really think about this one pretty hard. Danielle Lewis for the females, I love her stars and stripes. I mean, America, right there. I look at her kit and I was like, that looks sharp. It looks clean. And she's a great athlete. She did pretty well in Nice. And I love the fact, too, just even talking about performance-wise, she goes from swim to bike, and then her run. She gets stronger. And I love seeing that stars and stripes come through. It's just really cool looking at her kit. I like that, the colors. As far as the men go, I actually happen to agree with you, Andrew. Sam Long. I mean, this guy, his character, his own character comes out in his kits, and vice versa, you could say. I love the colors. I love the craziness of them. The more color, the better, in many senses for that. And I think he really pulls it off very well. So those are my votes.

Andrew: He finds ways. Zoot is his kit provider and has been for years. He always finds ways to freshen it up. It's always some sort of pink, charcoals, and blacks. Every year it's a little bit different. Just to freshen it up a little bit, I'm going to give 2 new ones that are catching my eye lately. On the women's side, Flora Duffy. She doesn't have a color scheme that my eye typically gravitates towards, and there's nothing flashy about the design within the kit. It's just kind of like blocks of color, but the colors all work together. It's got this navy blue base, a little lighter blue on the top. And then one sleeve is one color. The other sleeve is a different color. The way it all comes together really matches Flora, really matches her home country of Bermuda in a tasteful way. It's easy to spot her. It’s easy to: “Oh, there's Flora”, whether she's racing short course or long. I've been enjoying Flora's kit concept for this year. On the men's side, Josh Amberger from Australia always has a great kit. But he does a lot with floral patterns. Over the years, he's had some kind of pink floral kits. His current one is kind of like a gold tan base with some green leaf patterns. So he's always doing something with foliage. I don't think I could pull those kits off, but if you know Josh Amberger's personality, he can definitely pull those kits off. They're always a lot of fun. We're going to throw this question out to the TriDot podcast audience. So make sure you're a member of the I Am TriDot Facebook group or if you’re a TriDot athlete, make sure you're engaging with TriDot coaches and athletes in the community hub. I'm going to pose this question to both of those places and find out, in the year 2024, whose kit in the pro field are you liking?

Main set theme: On to the main set. Going in 3…2…1…

Andrew: In both the men’s and women’s field there are plenty of quality professional triathletes to watch, root for and admire. With more live race coverage, social media accounts, and YouTube channels, we have better access to the lives and training secrets of the pros than ever before. There are many things we can take from the tri life of the pros and apply to our own training and racing, but there are other things that we should leave to them and keep out of our own tri journey. Here to help us sort through it all is IRONMAN Champion Matt Bach and pro triathlete Elizabeth James. So Elizabeth, let’s start here today. How does someone become a pro and stay a pro in the first place?

Elizabeth: Alright, yeah. Well, each national governing body is going to have their different qualifying criteria, and so I can’t really speak to what the other countries would require, but to earn your elite triathlon card in the United States there’s actually a number of different qualification standards that you can meet. So USA Triathlon outlines criteria like A, B, C, D, E, F.  I mean, for real there’s that many. So there’s a few different ways that you can qualify depending on if you’re qualifying at the collegiate level, if you’re racing draft legal events, if you’re doing non-drafting shorter course or then longer events like IRONMAN events. So I guess instead of going through all of those, here’s just a couple examples. You can earn an overall top 10 amateur at a world’s event would be one of the qualification criteria. You can get top 5 amateur at a national event or like top 3 overall amateur at a qualifying race. So to be a qualifying race, that might be like an IRONMAN event that has a corresponding elite field offering a prize purse of a specified amount and that one is actually how I kind of came about my route to qualification.

Andrew: Yeah.

Elizabeth: So I figured that I would try to be top three at like a full distance IRONMAN and try to earn my elite card that way, and then I was happily surprised when this came a little bit earlier than expected. I was the second place amateur finisher of Waco 70.3 in 2019, and since there was a pro field in Waco that year then that became a qualifying race, so I could kind of meet that criteria standard there.

Andrew: And I was there.

Elizabeth: Yes.

Andrew: And I cheered for you as you were racing so I can say I helped you become a professional triathlete via my cheers.

Elizabeth: You absolutely did.

Andrew: You wouldn’t have done it without me cheering for you probably twice I saw you on course.

Elizabeth: Oh, I know. Hey, it takes a village. Definitely going to extend that credit your way. Yeah, so like if you meet one of those criteria, or some of the others that maybe pertain to the collegiate or draft legal racing, whatever the national governing body in your country would be, then you can apply for your elite license. Then in the United States, this is good for three years. Then to continue racing as an elite you have to requalify once every three years by finishing within 8% of the winners time at a race that offers at least a $5000 prize purse. So, I mean, there’s a couple different criteria paths that you can go about to earn your elite license, and then once you have it, then there are specific criteria that you also have to meet to kind of retain that license, as well.

Matt: I’ve got a fun fact to add on this one too.

Andrew: Please do.

Matt: I actually worked with USA Triathlon back in I think it was around 2015, 2014. I actually worked with some folks over there to add one of the criteria which I believe is still on there which is regarding the ranking, the USA Triathlon rankings which you can see on their site and you can look yourself up and you can see how your different performance is rated. The rankings, I don’t know if there’s a top or a bottom to it. I think the bottom is probably 0, but the top pros are something like 120 or 130 with some of the best performances. So I think they added a ranking number so if you have a performance or I think several performances, like an average for the season, that is above a certain minimum threshold, then you can become a professional in that way as well.  

Andrew: So Matt, something that we mentioned in your intro today is we mentioned that you on multiple occasions had the opportunity to apply for your elite license based on some of your performances and you opted not to. Kind of walk us through like when faced with that decision, because, Elizabeth, you as well in Waco, you were faced with the decision, okay I qualified to become a pro, I can make that splash, I can go all in or I can decline that and let it pass me by. So Matt for you, what led you to make the decision to not apply for that pro card at that time?

Matt: Yeah, there’s a lot of different factors that go into it and a lot of people would think that if you’ve qualified that you should just take it. It’s a given. But for a lot of people they end up going the route of a prof-amateur; a professional amateur.  I think I’ve been called in various conversations or forms. There’s a bunch of them out there that are basically, you know, have qualified and requalified many, many times to have a pro card, but have continually opted to not take their pro card and they compete at a very high level. They beat a lot of the pros any time that they race and then end up basically just slamming the amateur field and the age group fields over and over again. For some, it’s a point of contention because it’s like, “Okay, if you’re that good you should be a pro. You should get out of the way so that I can be on the podium in the amateur races.” So some people find it to be a little bit controversial, but it’s really a choice and the choice for me at the time was, “Okay, my swim is not strong enough to be able to keep up with the lead pack or in the second pack, or even, a lot of the time, the third pack if there’s one of those.

Andrew: Wow.

Matt: So it’s like okay, I mean, do I jump into the pro field? I’ll have a very different race experience if I do that, or do I decide to try to improve my swim first and really my bike and my run as well so that I can really be competitive with the pro field? Because it’s a very different race experience. I was actually encouraged by a number of people that I had talked to, including Sarah Piampiano, one of the female pros, when I had a conversation with her about going pro and she kind of encouraged me; she’s in the same situation where her swim is not particularly strong and she was encouraged by her coach to stay out of the pro field for a year or two while she developed her swim and then make the jump and that’s obviously worked out nicely for her.

Andrew: So with more pros giving us a peek at their training on Strava, social media, YouTube, we can kind of get an idea of what the training is like for a pro, but I know that we’re not really getting the full picture based on what we see. What are the biggest differences between the training it takes to be a pro and the training we take on as amateurs?

Elizabeth: I think one– well, there’s a couple really interesting things here and I guess one of the things that I’d first like to point out is that my training from going from an amateur competitor to a professional competitor did not change much, and that was actually something that a lot of the mentors that I had said. Like, more of what you’re doing needs to stay the same than change, because you are progressing well, you are training well, and just because, you know, you now are competing in this different category doesn’t mean that you need to change everything.

Matt: Yeah, it’s not just a magic thing where you, like, flip a switch and it’s like all of a sudden, “I’m a pro. I have a pro card.” So all of a sudden I’m a better athlete, or I can handle ten hours more of training or anything like that.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Matt: That doesn’t make any sense. You’re absolutely right.

Elizabeth: I mean, I think that’s one of the things that’s really cool and I think it speaks very well to what TriDot does, is that, you know, I’ve been using TriDot as a beginner triathlete and now as a professional. So what changes is, you know, a couple of the things in terms of my mental approach, the height that I place on recovery, better fueling, but in terms of the training itself, more of it has stayed the same than has changed as I’ve made this transition. But I do also want to really just kind of hone in on the recovery from the sessions and some of the pro athletes are able to train the number of hours that they do and complete all of these strenuous workouts that they do because they have the opportunity to properly recover from the training and I do think that that’s one of the biggest differences that we see from amateurs and age groupers to the professionals. You know, the pros they are really prioritizing sleep, quality nutrition, all of the recovery modalities, and, you know, you can’t go and put in the same number of hours at the same intensity of those top level pros are if you aren’t going to be able to back that up with the proper recovery modalities to allow for that. And honestly, for most age group athletes and even some pros that are working full or part time jobs, they aren’t able to do that. They have other responsibilities. You know, you’ve got a job, family, et cetera so being able to train two to three times a day with enough recovery and proper fueling between sessions may just not be a realistic possibility.

Matt: Yeah, big ditto on the recovery. Because the pros can recover more, they can do and benefit more from the training that they do, and while the athlete with a full time job is getting ready for work, maybe commuting and then doing something stressful for many hours the full time pro triathlete they’ve go their feet up in Normatec Boots binging on Netflix until the next session, or they’re spinning their legs out, or they’re getting in an easy swim which can act as great recovery, active recovery. So as I was debating turning pro in 2016, I consulted my coach on numerous occasions trying to get a grip on what it is the pros are doing that I wasn’t doing and he repeatedly kept saying, “Recover.” And it wasn’t a knock on me, it was just a fact of the situation. I was commuting three hours a day. I was working long hours as a trader on Wall Street, so pro-like recovery for me just wasn’t possible.

Andrew: Yeah.

Matt: And the other big thing to highlight is in our lives we need to prioritize; maybe it’s family, then work, then triathlon, but for pro triathletes triathlon is their work. So it moves up, just by that nature, it moves up in priority, and in many cases they might not have a spouse or might not have kids yet, or at all, so triathlon is actually the highest priority thing in their life. So we may have to shift things around in our own schedules to accommodate for our life getting in the way of the training because of the way that we’ve prioritized our lives, and there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s a choice that we’re making, and in most cases that’s the right choice, but they don’t have that. They don’t have that conflict, so they can purly prioritize triathlon.

Andrew: Yeah, no, that’s a great point and I…to that point, I would encourage people. I mean, find some pros on social media to follow that are not the biggest names. You know, find some pros that do have a full time job, or a part time job, on top of their training, and follow them and just kind of get a glimpse of what their experience is like. You know, Elizabeth, you’re a perfect example. You work full time with TriDot, you coach athletes on the side, and you do your training. I’ve mentioned before I really enjoy following Ben and Heather Deal. They’re two pros that are married. They’re not necessarily in the money in any given race. They’re not necessarily a threat to podium at any world championship race, but they’re quality athletes, they’re great athletes, they’re strong athletes, and they both have jobs. They both have lives that they have to live to support their triathlon habit, and so I enjoy following some pros like that on social media, because it shows you just a different side to being a pro. It shows you a different pro experience from what you see when you follow a Jan Fordino, or a Ben Hoffman, or a Tim O’Donnell, or Daniella Ryf on Instagram.

Matt: And remember too that on social media, what you see on social is usually the crazy stuff. So they’re not doing that every day. Mostly what they do is zone 2, zone 1, their active recovery and it’s only the real sexy stuff that shows up on Facebook, that everybody wants to see. So they’re not doing that day in and day out.

Andrew: Yeah, good point. Good point. So as we see professionals training, as we see kind of what they do in their regimen, and, Elizabeth, we hear you talk about hour training with TriDot and how not much even changed. You just added in more recovery modalities, what can we learn from the pros and implement from the pros into our own training?

Matt: There’s a lot to learn from the pros. Like, they dedicate their lives to triathlon. They’re looking at all the minute details to get the most out of themselves, and their teams, their coaches, their bike fitter, their dietitian, they find and put some things into practice before science even has the chance to validate it. So there’s a bunch of things that they’ve discovered that– you know, they’re on the frontier, they’re on the front edge of that curve, because they make a living doing it, and this is; I mean, they’re basically obsessed with triathlon and it’s what their entire life revolves around. So we can, as amateurs, kind of leverage the fact that they are putting all this time and effort and energy into the research and into finding those little things that can help. So here’s some things that you can do to help your own performances, even though we’re amateurs and they are pros. So they do overlap and there’s things that we can all do. So your bike set up, for instance, aerodynamically they’ve had the benefit of wind tunnels and Velodromes, and we don’t all have that opportunity to go to those places, money or time wise, to figure out what tends to be the most aerodynamic, but many of them; of the things that they’ve discovered in the wind tunnel are pretty well universally accepted that we can do as well. So for instance a well fitting sleeved kit, and I’ve talked about these things on the podcast before and also in an article I wrote for USA Triathlon, but shaving your legs, aero helmets, are a great bang for your buck. Your bike position bottles, you want to have a well fitting bottle between the arms or you want to have one behind the saddle, or two behind the saddle. Try to avoid having it on the down tube, or on the seat post, although if hydration is really important, then you still might want to have those even though you’re taking a small aerodynamic penalty, it’s a very marginal difference. But just paying attention to those things, being cognizant of the fact that you’re making that deliberate trade off and other things too. If you’ve got a huge budget, you know the wheels, the bike, the waxed chain ring. All those things, you can go crazy spending a lot of money and time getting all those things to make you that much– a little bit faster, but those things are things that the pros have discovered that, for them, it really makes sense, because even though they have to spend a decent amount of money, a lot of times their sponsors covering it and sometimes, even if they have to spend it on their own, it’s a worthwhile investment because they might move up a spot or two in a race.

Andrew: It might help them earn money in the long run.

Matt: Exactly. Yeah. Then strength and mobility, we don’t all have the time, you know, all the time in the world, like the pros do, to add in strength and mobility, but at some level, in my opinion, is a necessity to get the most out of your training and stay injury free. So I’ll foam roll every day. When it comes to something like strength training, many would argue that since I may only have ten hours a week to do my training, that I should just be swimming, biking and running, but I would argue that you should swim, bike and run for maybe nine hours of that week and spend one of those hours on strength training because that mix is going to be a better combination. It’s going to actually make you faster and less prone to injury. Make it a more sustainable and viable thing for you to do in a long-term fashion. Then another one, which I really enjoy that pros do a great job of, but most amateurs I don’t think really take advantage of is heat adaptation. So pros use heat adaptation protocols ahead of hot races and I see no reason that an amateur couldn’t also benefit from those, regardless of whether you’re just trying to finish the race or trying to podium in your age group. I won’t go into all the details on how to do a heat adaptation protocol. There’s a few different ones out there, but the general consensus is that ten days to two weeks is about the time frame leading into the race that you should do it. So be careful about how you do it, but there are protocols where you can encourage better adaptation to the heat.

Andrew: Yeah, and we’ll certainly have to do a whole episode outlining those protocols, outlining those options, and really teaching people how to heat adapt properly leading into a race, because I mean there certainly are plenty of races on the triathlon circuit that are hot, and will be hot, and we need to know how to do that. But even simple things, like I’ve got an hour and 50 minute long run today at the time we’re recording this podcast. You know, it’s a Wednesday, and I’ve got a long run as I’m training here for IRONMAN Waco, and instead of doing that run first thing this morning when it was 70 degrees, I’m choosing to do that run at 2:00 or 3:00 in the afternoon when it’s going to be in the mid 80s. So not terribly hot, but warm enough to make me a little uncomfortable and a little bit closer to probably what I’ll be running in on race day. So, even making simple decisions like that, when appropriate, can be helpful. But we’ll just circle back up, Matt, with some heat adaptation experts and go over that on the podcast. Elizabeth, what are a few things that you see that pros do in their training, that you do in your training, that amateur athletes like myself can benefit from?

Elizabeth: Yeah, I mean everything that Matt said was great. I was trying to think of what else I could add to that. Pros eat well, and they eat a lot. So I think that’s something that we can–

Andrew: Nice, nice. I like it.

Elizabeth: –we can adopt as well, and, you know, keep in mind that in amateurs, “a lot” would probably still be a lot less than a pro’s “a lot.” So you have to be smart about finding the right amount of food, the right types of food, that your body would thrive on, but eating to sustain your training load is super important, and this is actually something that I’ve talked with a number of my coached athletes about and something that we monitor very closely just to make sure that they are taking in enough calories to really sustain the training load, especially if they are training for a longer course event and their training hours are ramping up. You know, this is something that I used to be very self conscious of. You know, I’d go out to eat with a group of girlfriends, you know, Saturday for lunch, and I’m finishing off a full meal and a side, and they’re sitting there asking for a to-go box for ¾ of their meal. You know, but I had just finished my four hour workout in the morning and you know, they walk the dog. And not that there’s anything wrong with that, there’s just a difference in the number of calories that we burned that morning. So you really do need to make sure that you are nourishing your body. I’ve worked with a number of different dieticians to get a better understanding of how to fuel my body, what my body needs to really be able to sustain the training, and this is something the Dr. Krista Austin has talked about on some of the podcast episodes that she has done as well, really highlighting the low energy availability and making sure that athletes do have the energy to train, and perform well, and perform their best. So yeah. Food. I definitely like to eat. I was already on my second breakfast here this morning as we were starting to record.

Andrew: Yes.

Elizabeth: So yeah.

Andrew: Outstanding.

Elizabeth: Make sure you’re fueling that well. Another thing I think to highlight here, is being mentally strong. So you may not be physically capable of doing a sub four 70.3, but you are capable of being the best that you can be and getting that personal best finish time. So control what you can control, do it well. Your mental fitness is super important. This is something that, I mean, over the past two years I’ve been working on a lot is just making sure that my mind is super strong and can be used as an asset for me instead of, kind of, that enemy that’s like, “Oh, this hurts. Lets pull back.” or “I don’t know if I can do this.”

Andrew: Yeah.

Elizabeth: Really kind of squashing some of that self doubt. I know that Raines really always likes to talk about that grit factor and developing that grit to be able to push ourselves not only in the training, but racing. Then I think one last thing. You know, Matt had talked about just the team around a lot of the professionals. It doesn’t have to be something that you’re spending a whole bunch of money on, but just making sure that you have those people around you to support you. I just think of even, like, getting my doctor on board. When I go in for my annual physical, you know, we do blood work and make sure that all of that is looking good. I will see a chiropractor a number of times during the year, not even necessarily as something to address an injury, but just if I can feel things getting really tight I’ll go in as a preventative measure, and so having some of those professionals in your corner to make sure that you are really taking care of your body is important.

Andrew: A lot of things that we can learn from the experience and the training of the pros, but there are certainly things that the pros do in their lives and their tri journeys that we shouldn’t emulate. What are some of those things that we should just kind of look at, and applaud, and admire, but then not do ourselves in our own training?

Matt: Yeah. One thing, definitely don’t mimic their body. For the reasons we’ve discussed earlier about recovery, you can’t recover like they can, and you can’t hit the volume they can. I should use the word “shouldn’t” actually because you shouldn’t hit the volume that they can. A lot of people, they could hit the number of miles, or they could hit the number of hours that the pros do. They could go out there and do 30 some hours or whatever, but it just wouldn’t be in your best interest.

Andrew: Yeah.

Matt: I mean, fortunately TriDot takes into account the data from over 50,000 amateur athletes and knows the right level of training for you so that you can maximize gains. So a real life example of this point, I was trying to do 16 hours a week in 2013. I wasn’t getting faster. I was plateauing. It was frustrating. I kept trying to add more volume thinking that it was the solution, but learned that I was just doing too much, given my stressful life situation, to reap the benefits of the extra training that I was doing. So pro triathletes, I mean, a lot of them are doing between 20 and 30 hours a week. That’s optimal for them because their life situation is built around training and recovery, but don’t think that you need to do 20 to 30 hours of training to crush it as an amateur. I’ve heard stories of– there’s one amazing example of an amateur athlete training, is Sammy Incanin, who does something like eight or nine hours of training a week, and for several years there, he was just one of the top amateurs in all of Kona, in the world, on just eight or nine hours of training a week. So you really don’t– and a good buddy of mine is doing the same thing. He qualified for Kona at IRONMAN Texas one year, and then he raced in Kona and did really well, and he was doing it all on eight to ten hours a week.

Andrew: Wow.

Matt: So really you don’t need that massive volume that the pros are doing. Definitely don’t try to mimic their volume unless you’re not working at all, and you have the same time, and you’re devoting all that time to the recovery like they are. I would also say don’t mimic their nutrition approach–  

Andrew: Yes. Great point.

Matt: –in race, because the elite triathletes, they’re burning calories at a ridiculous rate. I mean a really, really rapid rate and Dr. Krista Austin could elaborate on that. But they’re expending energy at a really rapid rate. I mean they have higher FTPs, they operate at a higher percentage of their FTP than we all do, so they burn more glycogen and less fat, and they burn more calories in general so they need to supplement with more carbs. So many of the pros during the bike legs are taking in 300 to 400 calories an hour–

Andrew: Jeez.

Matt: –to be able to prevent a bonk, but we’re not expending energy at such a prodigious rate, and most athletes can’t handle 300 to 400 calories an hour without having stomach problems, so instead, start with maybe 200 calories an hour and then dial it up or down from there depending on your own caloric needs, your own intensities. You know, everybody is so different, there’s so many different factors that go into it. So you’ve got to trial and error.

Andrew: Yeah. Something that I did really early; before I was on TriDot I think it was at the point in my tri journey where I had done some sprints and Olympics, I was gearing up for my first 70.3, and I saw…I don’t remember which magazine it was, but one of the triathlon magazines put out an article with Alistair Brownlee, and it was detailing– it basically was Alistair Brownlee’s nutrition sponsor putting out an article through this magazine showing you what Alistair takes in at a normal 70.3. And so, oh, here I am. I’m this amateur athlete. I have my first 70.3 coming up. I’ve never tried fueling myself for a 70.3 so I’m reading this article and you know, I didn’t use the same product he was using, but I was looking at it and saying, “Oh, this is really interesting. How can I take the things that I’m using, the products that I’m using, and hit kind of these same calorie goals, because it works for him so this is clearly a good way to do it.” Well, I have no idea as an amateur that first of all, he’s spending hours less time on course than me, but then to your point Matt, in those hours he needs more calories per hour on the bike to just fuel the intensity he’s going at and so I’m– Mentally I did the math, and long story short, I figured out I wasn’t even capable of taking in the same amount of calories he was taking in and I went away from trying to copy him, thankfully. But yeah. I think a lot of us do that. We look at what a pro does and say, “Oh, well, that works for them. It must be the best way to do it.” Well, no. Your needs and their needs are completely different when it comes to nutrition. So great point there Matt.

Matt: Great antidote. I hadn’t heard that story before.

Andrew: I haven’t told that story before, to anyone.

Matt: Another one. Don’t mimic their position on the bike. They are very flexible. They can generate power in a very aggressive position, and they deprioritize comfort to some degree so that they can get those extra– you know squeeze those extra handful of seconds out of the bike when they’re getting a little bit more aerodynamic. So 95+% of amateurs should be in a less aggressive position. When you’re getting fit on your bike you should make sure; I would suggest working with a professional. I think we’ve recommended this many times before, but work with a professional fitter, and there’s the three things that you’re looking to optimize between and that’s comfort, aerodynamics, and power and you need to make sure that you’re comfortable enough, especially if you’re doing something like an Ironman or like a hilly Ironman; a long, long course like that, you need to make sure that you’re comfortable, so that when you get off the bike you’re able to run well. So don’t try to mimic their position on the bike where they’ve got this back that’s parallel to the ground, they’re flat, they’re so aerodynamic. It looks so sleek. Yeah, it looks great and yes they are fast, but they are also professionals who spend tons of time in that position, tons of time working on their flexibility. Many times they’re also much younger than us; they’re in their 20s and 30s and many of us are not. So they can be in that very, very aggressive position, but for most of us, it doesn’t make sense to try to be in that very aggressive position or you’ll have some pretty sad runs off the bike when your back and your whole body is just messed up because of a very, very aggressive position you dealt with over the bike course.

Elizabeth: Yeah, those are really, really good points. I think one of the things that has been interesting for me, in the switch from amateur racing to pro racing, are the tactics of the race. So I would kind of encourage athletes, you know, don’t mimic the tactics of the pro race either. You know, if somebody is going to blow by you at mile 10 of the bike, you don’t need to cover their move and really chase after them. You know, if you’re running along somebody at mile 15, you don’t need to attack and, you know, just kind of put them behind you, make a move on them, try to drop them. You know, keep it steady. Your best race time is going to come when you’re even and steady, distributing energy along the way, and this is great because it’s going to be what your RaceX plan prescribes. So you’re not necessarily needing to match the moves of the other competitors, or trying to break somebody else down. If you’re going for a Kona spot and you’re on the last couple miles of the run, there may be some tactics that come in there, but for the majority of people on course you really are looking for your best finish time, and racing against yourself, and doing your personal best, and this is something that I’ve kind of had to work on in my mindset is, okay not only am I looking to better myself, but now I’ve got to pay a little bit more attention to race the field.

Andrew: You’re racing people.

Elizabeth: So, but yeah. For the majority of athletes, you know, I’d say don’t mimic the tactics that you may see some of the pros doing in their racing.

Andrew: Yeah, especially with things like Collins Cup, and the PTO events, and Challenge Daytona, and more IRONMAN events being broadcast live via Facebook and other platforms, you know, we get to see those tactics, and we get to hear commentators telling us about those tactics, and that’s all well and good, but it’s not necessarily for us to mimic when we’re out there just trying to hit our own best personal time.

Matt: It brings to mind in the Olympics, the team race.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Matt: Do you guys remember that? Where, who was it? Was it Louis, Vincent Louis?

Andrew: Yes, yeah. Vincent Louis.

Matt: I mean that was– it makes for better TV, that’s for sure, because when we were watching that, and he just attacked like a Tour de France rider on the bike, and completely just destroyed him on the bike, opened up the gap, and then on the run it was just like this battling, this attacking back and forth. I mean it definitely makes for better TV. It makes for a better thing to watch in the racing, but like you say, EJ, tactics like that, you’re not going see that in the amateur racing. You shouldn’t see that in the amateur races unless in those very specific examples of battling for a podium spot, battling for an overall win or a Kona qualification spot or something like that.

Andrew: And there’s not cameras following us around to amp up the pressure.

Matt: We’re not making good TV.

Andrew: So we do all the training to have success on race day. Elizabeth, just kind of take us for a second into the pro field. What is that like racing in the pro field? Did it feel any different to you, or does it feel very much the same, you just get to start first thing in the morning?

Elizabeth: You know, it does feel very different for me, especially because I’m just kind of starting out. To be honest, Chattanooga was very lonely, because I did not come out of the water with the swim pack. So pretty soon after we started, I have been swimming my races very solo this year and then I come out and I’m kind of by myself. So like in Chattanooga, I swam the majority of the swim on my own, didn’t see very many people on the bike, and then the first loop of the run was incredibly lonely. So that’s a very, very different feel for me, to really just kind of be out there solo. It’s really kind of hard to get into a race mode when you’re by yourself and you have no idea where anybody else is at or kind of what paces the competitors are pushing. So right now, it feels incredibly different for me. I will say though, that the pro porta potties are a huge perk. I mean, not having to budget as much time pre race for the bathroom lines, that feels very different.  

Matt: Golden.

Elizabeth: That’s a big win.

Andrew: That sounds like a reason to accept your pro card, Matt. You know, just right there, to have your own porta potty.

Matt: Yeah.

Andrew: Elizabeth, it was thrilling to track you in Chattanooga, and to see you come out– knowing, okay you’re just an insanely strong runner. You’re working on your swim. To see you come out of the water where you did, and to see you make a few moves on the bike in position, and then you hit the run course and just it was like every so often you were just moving up a spot. Every time I opened up the app and checked to see how you were doing, you had moved up a few spots and it was like, yep, she got out there on that run course and she was hunting people down because that’s the Elizabeth James way. So it was thrilling to watch you do that, and I know you probably were having a good time with that. So, Matt, any notes from you here, Matt, on what it’s like to race as a pro with all the pros that you’ve dialogued with?

Matt: Yeah, just one major point is they swim fast, and we’ve touched on this a little bit on several occasions now, but I’m not a particularly good swimmer, but I typically would finish in the top 5 or 10% of most amateur fields, but in most pro fields I’d be DFL.

Elizabeth: I know the feeling.

Andrew: Dead freaking last. We’ll go with that. Dead freaking last. DFL.

Matt: You’re right, freaking. That means I’d have a lot of ground to make up on the bike and the run, and likely be out of contention for the win or maybe even a podium. So as the saying goes, you can’t win it in the swim, but you can lose it.

Elizabeth: Yeah, exactly.

Matt: So these pros, like they’re all good swimmers. They all spend a ton of time in the pool, and they’re all good swimmers.

Elizabeth: Let’s just say that this year it’s been very, very easy for me to locate my bike in transition, and hopefully, as I progress, there’ll be a couple more bikes that I have to decide between which one is mine when I get there.

Andrew: Yes, yes. We hope that for you. So let’s talk about racing like a pro for just a little bit. We have for a little bit now, but I imagine that the motivations are probably different. You know, pros are racing for position. They’re racing for rankings. They’re racing for money. They’re racing for sponsorships, et cetera. There are some amateurs racing for Kona slots, podiums, pro cards. So some of that I suppose could be similar, but, you know, you’re trying to go fast and beat your competition. You’re racing people. Most of us are out there just trying to do the best we can with the fitness that you have, and then trying to have a good day as we make our way to the finish line. So Matt, Elizabeth, what is the race experience like for the pros, and what can we learn from it?

Elizabeth: For me, one of my goals going into Chattanooga was to be in the money. I wasn’t sure if that would be a realistic goal, but it was kind of an outside goal that I had, and so Chattanooga paid ten deep, so I was really kind of going for that top 10 finish, and with each place that I moved up, I knew the paycheck was going to be a little bit bigger.

Andrew: Was that in your head as you were passing girls on the run course?

Matt: Cha-ching.

Elizabeth: Not necessarily the money part of it, but–

Andrew: Okay.

Elizabeth: I was definitely checking off the placements and had an idea of where I was. Although, I like that little sound effect there, Matt. I’ll have to remember that.  

Matt: I’ll follow you around on race day next time–

Elizabeth: There you go. I like it.

Matt: –and I’ll make one every time you pass somebody.

Elizabeth: But, you know, Andrew, I think what you said about doing the best that you can with the fitness that you have is the same for everybody out there. You know, I’m always looking to just do my best, and in fact, on the run course on Sunday, I said almost those exact words to Charles as he was out there cheering me on. I saw him near the hill right before Battery Place and I said, “I’m giving you my best.” My pace was fading. My legs were starting to cramp, but you know, I promised that morning like, I’m going to give this my best, and he promised that that’s all that he expected of me. So when you mentioned, you know, most of us are out there just trying to do our best, yeah. The pros are out there giving their best as well.

Matt: I just have one thing to add. Like the fields are just so deep and competitive. So when I was thinking about going pro, I spoke with Andy Potts and he emphasized that when you’re passing a pro; when you’re a pro passing a pro, you’re stealing his lunch money not just his wag. It’s like wow, okay. That puts some perspective. But that taught me two things. Like, one, I better be prepared to suffer big time if I want to be successful as a pro. And two, if I remain in the amateur field and learned to suffer like a pro, then I should be able to really trounce nearly all the amateurs. If you can suffer like the pros suffer and really dig that deep– To me the mental side of things is one of the biggest things. We mentioned that earlier, Elizabeth, as one of the things that we can learn from the professionals, and that’s one of the things that I think separates them the most, is the fact that they can suffer so– you know, go so deep into that hurt locker, that pain cave, and be able to bury people because they’re just willing to suffer so much. So I figured hey, if I stay in the amateur field and I learn how to suffer like that, then I should be able to do really, really well in the amateur field.

Andrew: So many of us follow our favorite pros on social media and on there we see the products that they’re using and the products they are clearly sponsored by. Talk to me about pro sponsorship deals. How do these usually come to be, and more importantly, if we see a pro endorsing a product, does that mean it’s actually effective enough for us to give it a shot, or are they just taking a paycheck and posting on the Instagram?

Matt: In some cases it’s that, but the answer to your question it’s a resounding maybe. Many of the pros are authentic in their love of the gear and the products that they use, but many are not, and it’s a shame, but money talks and some pros endorse things that they don’t believe in. So having been on both sides of the sponsorship arrangement, I’ve come to appreciate the truly authentic endorsement. It often begins with the athlete using the product before even being sponsored, or before even knowing anybody at the company. They’ll generally grow to use it, love it, and then reach out to the company, or maybe the company will catch wind that the athlete is using whatever it is that they’re selling, and that’s how I came to UCAN in the first place. It solved my GI problems and allowed me to win IRONMAN Maryland in 2014 and I didn’t know anyone at the company, but after I won, they caught wind of it and reached out to me. Then the next step, the athlete and the company, you know, whenever they connect, many times with an athlete agent being involved, they’ll drop the terms of the agreement, and it usually involves certain expectations like social media posts, and maybe it’s YouTube videos. There’s a logo placement on their kit. Maybe it’s appearances at events maybe in person or virtual events. Being able to use their name and likeness in marketing materials is basically a given. The athlete agrees to talk up the product, ideally in a natural way that doesn’t appear forced, and it works out for both parties since the athlete makes a living, the company gets exposure, gets sales; that is, of course, as long as the athlete is convincing enough that their audience buys, and hence being convincing is easy when you actually love it.

Andrew: Yeah. Very true.

Matt: One sign that an athlete is really using and loving a product is if it’s showing up in their pictures and their videos even if they aren’t putting it in your face and telling you why they love it. So there is the spot where they’re doing that, and they’re shoving it in your face, and they’re telling it, but then there’s also, kind of just that, I don’t know if you want to call it product placement; it just happens to be in the photo and it’s not forced. It’s not even intentional. It just happens to be there because they are using it and loving it. Then another thing to note is that there are a lot of things out there that really aren’t that different from what their competitors are offering. So if a pro is telling you to use a brand of bike that they’re sponsored by and you’re going to go 20 minutes faster at your next 70.3, you might want to hold off on spending the dough and do a little more research, because sometimes it just doesn’t make that big of a difference no matter how many good things they say about what it is that they’re using.

Andrew: Yeah.

Matt: I mean, that said though, there are a bunch of things that truly do make a difference, and I appreciate it when honorable pros find those things for us so that we can learn from them and then they bring some of these products into the light. I mean, this podcast, it’s not a pro athlete, but this podcast has sponsors, and I’m proud of the way that you, Andrew, and the team have identified products and services that actually make a difference that we’ve actually been using and have gotten behind, like TriBIKE Transport, and UCAN, and Precision Hydration, and deltaG. It’s great when there’s an authentic, genuine use of it because then I think people will see it, right? We’re all– we’re human beings and we have a very good, innate sense of whether somebody is trying to blow smoke up your ass–

Andrew: Our BS meters. Our BS meters are typically pretty good.

Matt: Exactly.

Andrew: I’m glad you’re saying this, because we’ve never said it on the podcast before. I’ve never really thought to, to be honest, but we don’t– Like the TriDot podcast we are not interested in just taking a company’s dollars and then talking about that company on the air. Like, we are interested in forming partnerships with companies that we believe in and having co-marketing agreements to where they market us, we market them, and so everything that we read ads for on the podcast, every company that we talk up on the podcast, we’re either using them ourselves individually, or it’s a company that we’ve formed a partnership with because we believe in their product. We’re never going to just take somebody’s money and then talk about them, because that’s not what we’re here to do. We’re here to help the average, everyday triathlete learn about the sport, and we’re here to help them find products that actually work and do something. So great point there, Matt, that we’ve honestly never really thought of saying on the air before.

Matt: Yeah, you and I, Andrew, are constantly like on a weekly basis talking about companies that we won’t even engage with because there just is no genuine fit there.

Andrew: Yeah.

Matt: So, yeah. It’s great. Then one other thing I wanted to point out on this topic with sponsorships, is an anecdotal example that I’m sure many people are aware of because it’s been in New York Times articles and things, but the Nike Next%. Nike’s shoes, the carbon plated shoes. They came out, and you had runners who were sponsored by another company and decided to drop the sponsorship, and they were making thousands of dollars, or maybe even tens of thousands, or more, on this contract. They decided to drop it so that they could run in the Nike Next%, or whatever version it was that they were running in, because they were going to perform better, because it was actually that big of a difference. So they were actually paying for a pair of shoes instead of making– having free pairs of shoes plus many thousands of dollars, because the product was that good, and that, for me, was A– a really interesting example in marketing and in the sponsorship world, but also B– told me that is the highest level endorsement you could possibly give. You’re giving up thousands of dollars. You’re actually paying, essentially; like giving up an opportunity cost so that you could use a certain pair of shoes. So for me it was like, “Okay, if I’m going to compete at a high level, it obviously makes a difference if these pros are all doing that. They wouldn’t give up all that money if it wasn’t making a difference.” So, an interesting example.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s a great anecdote, and I think it was really just this past year, here, 2021, where all of a sudden other brands have finally seemed to catch up and make carbon plated technology. I’m seeing on course a lot more– you know when I travel to races and root on our TriDot athletes, I’m seeing a lot more Asics Metaracers, and New Balance’s carbon plated one, the RC, whatever Adidas’s is called. You’re starting to see more of those, whereas in years past, you would just see a lot of bright Vapor Flys out there. So we actually, at some point in the future, plan on doing another shoe episode. Episode #3 of the podcast was dedicated to running shoes, and we want to revisit it and really just kind of talk about the super shoes, and race day shoes, and what options are out there. What that top technology is like. So be on the lookout for that episode here one of these days, because that is such an interesting way to gain an advantage on your run. So guys, let’s close down the main set with this today. Just tons of great stuff, Elizabeth, Matt, from both of you just kind of peeling back the curtain a little bit on what it’s like to be a pro, race as a pro, train as a pro, things we can learn from the pros. I appreciate all of your insight. I think people will enjoy this episode. What is the best way for us, just as the people of triathlon, as amateur triathletes; what is the best way for us to support and to show our love to our favorite pros?

Elizabeth: So for all the love that’s given to the pros, unfortunately there’s a lot of criticism that’s also given out. You know, since they’re in the spotlight it’s easy to get excited about them, but it’s also easy to point out when they’ve made an error or something that people feel like they could have, should have, done better. I mean, I’ve personally gotten some rather hurtful messages myself and I can only imagine, like, the critics and the comments that the top tier professionals get. So I think it’s important to remember that, you know, the pros make mistakes too. We have bad races too. So I think let’s just go back to that nice elementary school saying, and maybe this is the teacher coming out in me that says, you know, “If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all.”

Andrew: Which that, that needs to apply to social media…

Elizabeth: Just in general.

Andrew: …just period. Right? Across the board.

Elizabeth: I mean, everybody.

Andrew: Yeah, people get on social media, and it’s amazing the things that people think they have the right to say and it’s like–  Anyway. Matt, any thoughts here from you on the best way to support and show love to our favorite pros?

Matt: Yeah, so having been on the sponsorship side of things, help them be good athletes for their sponsors. They very much appreciate that. So if you love them, you love following them, you’re appreciating the content they’re putting out, the tips, just the personal life that you love to follow, then follow their social accounts, engage with them with likes, comments, shares. They’re measured on those things by the sponsors. So also, if you do decide to buy something because of a pro triathlete’s influence, then be sure that the company knows it in one way, shape, or form. So either mention it in a review on the product or service. Make sure that you use the discount code linked to the pro if they have one, or mention their name in the “How did you hear of us?” section. So those things all add up and they help. They’re small, but they add up to help the pros work well and get the sponsorship deals.

Cool down theme: Great set everyone! Let’s cool down.

Andrew: Alright, that was a very interesting main set with Elizabeth James and Matt Bach talking us through what from the professional field are triathlon lessons that we can learn from, and what are things that are best left to the pros and not us age groupers. They were, just, such the right fit for this episode, Ryan, because Elizabeth is a professional triathlete. At the time, three years ago, we recorded that she was fairly new in her pro career. She’s now been a pro for three or four years now and has more experience under her belt. I wonder, Ryan, if she would say anything different this time around if we were to revisit this with her. Matt Bach, back in the day, was very fast, won IRONMAN Maryland, considered going pro himself for a short period of time and decided against it as a family man and where he was at in his professional career. But anyway, they were the right people to learn about this with and talk about this with. Ryan, what are just a couple of things, as a coach, what really stuck out to you from that main set?

Ryan: You know what, I love the way it was broken down; things that we could do, even as amateurs, and even being new to the sport, is something that’s often overlooked and something that both Matt and Elizabeth spoke to, was recovery. It’s like, we can do that. And I emphasize that literally daily with my own athletes and myself. Am I routinely doing it? I say I’m getting close to that routinely part. But the point is, those are the things that we can do, and those are the things that the pro athletes are absolutely focusing on. You can call it, I’ve said this before on other podcasts, that’s like the 5th discipline. We’ve got swim, bike, run, nutrition, and then recovery. I think that really, really resonated, and it should resonate with everyone as amateur athletes. It’s like, hey, yes, you can do that. You just need to make that 5, 10 minutes time daily to accumulate or rather be consistent. And if you do, if you are consistent, you can train better, recover better on a day-to-day basis. I think thinking prophylactically rather than reactively, don't wait till something's bothering you to focus on recovery and mobility work, but rather, be proactive and work on that. That really, really stood out, because Matt mentioned that right off the bat. The other things, too, that we could do, is in relation to bike and equipment. You know, bike fit. Oftentimes I see this a lot at races, athletes do not have a proper bike fit. Yes, you can do that. And what will that do for you? Obviously, improve your performance, improve your efficiency. But not only that, with that bike fit, you're not going to get injured as easily if you have your bike fit appropriately. Then you talk about equipment. Aero helmets; that’s not necessarily a super expensive thing to get versus wheels. Then wheels could be optional if you've got that revenue to spend. Again, thinking about those things, we can get certain pieces of equipment and we can essentially emulate pros in many ways. Look good, feel good. That says a lot when you're going into your own race, right? I really think those stood out very highly to me as an amateur athlete myself. So I think we can certainly do those things, for sure.

Andrew: So, Ryan, as we listened to that main set, I wrote down 3 notes, and some of them overlap with you. Some of them are a little bit different. But the 3 things I wrote down: one, the emphasis they both placed on prioritizing recovery. You already mentioned that, I mentioned that as well. I wrote that down as, man, we all need to double-check ourselves, because of the thousands of people that might listen to this episode, there’s maybe a handful that do this as much as they should. My next note, Ryan, was, there's a couple of things that I thought really interesting that Matt and Elizabeth said that we should not mimic. One, we should not be mimicking their volume. One, because we're not recovering like they're recovering. We don't have the time and bandwidth to do the strength training that they do to support that volume. All these magazines are covering the Norwegian method of training, and they’re covering what these pros are doing. And, ah, here’s their giant training blocks going into this race and that race, and here’s how they got so fast to win this race and that race, and place, and podium, and make this big jump. Cool, good for them. This is their job, this is all they do. We should not be trying to mimic their volume for all the reasons Matt and Elizabeth outlined. The other things we should not be mimicking is their nutrition, their bike fit, and their race tactics. I won't expound on those too much because Elizabeth and Matt already did. But the one I do want to say on the bike fit part, Ryan, it's so tempting to see them on Instagram, and to see the race footage from weekends like Kona, and you're watching them fly down the Queen K in these super slick, awesome looking aero positions. And, ah, I want to look that cool, I want to be that cool, I want to feel that cool.  We don't have the body they have, we don’t have the flexibility they have, we don’t have the strength they have, we don’t have the equipment they have, we don’t have the wind tunnel testing they have. Don't try to have your bike fit look like their bike fit. Some people can, I can’t. I don't have the flexibility for that. Listen to your bike fitter and whatever your bike fitter says, do that, and don't try to be a professional out there in your position.

Ryan: Yeah. I’m glad you are mentioning the things we shouldn’t do, cause I have my list too, based from the podcast itself. And I'm glad you mentioned that volume approach. I won't harp on that anymore, with the exception of saying, do the training where you're at. And I think Elizabeth James said that exactly right. She said, you can't say, hey, I want to go pro, I want to do this, when you're nowhere near that at this point in your life or your training. Just embrace where you're at and continue on your journey. And I think too, like you said, bike fit, huge thing there, flexibility. That's just number one. If you can't even reach past your knees to reach towards your toes, don't get that aggressive bike fit. That's just not going to work out for you. Comfort is going to have to trump everything first for you. And I think to enjoy the race, have fun, have fun training, have fun racing, but tactics. It's something I heard yesterday. I was listening to the pros, the men, and it was great listening to them. And one of the tactics that one of the other pros was calling out another pro, essentially saying, I have a feeling that so-and-so is going to smash the bike in order to get the course record on the bike. Whether that's true or not, but nonetheless is, watching those tactics, you don't know what their meaning is behind their tactics. So there's other ways. And so I thought that was interesting. I love that Matt and Elizabeth talked about tactics, because, again, for every athlete, it's just so different in the game plan going into your racing, for example.

Andrew: Really, really great point there, Ryan. Athletes listening at home, they might know where they want to be in this sport 2 years, 3 years, 5 years from now. And we can't behave like we're ready for that yet if our body isn't ready for that yet. You got to kind of slowly grow into it, right? So, anyway, Ryan, the last thing I wrote down, my third and final note, was just Elizabeth's final point about when I asked them about how we can be supportive of our favorite pros in the field, what we can do to love on them, encourage them. Just pointing out, it's so easy on social media to make a comment about a pro, or to message a pro, or say something publicly on our Facebook about a pro, and make fun of something that went wrong in their race, or be critical of a training decision we've seen them make. They see a lot of that kind of stuff. Elizabeth pointed that out, saying like ‘I've seen people say some stuff about me that I didn't appreciate. And I had to try to swallow it, move on, ignore it.’ So just remember that pro triathletes, they're people too. They have feelings, they make mistakes, they have good days, they have bad days. Who are we to say anything about them, right? Do your best. Don't be that guy. Don't be that gal. Don't be that critic of anyone in the pro field. We should admire them, root for them, cheer for them, and champion them the same way we would want to be championed if it was us in their shoes. So that was my final point there. Ryan, thanks so much for revisiting this episode. I hope and trust at the time we're recording this, we're going to be watching Kona this weekend, and our listeners will already know who won. So they get to look back and laugh at us. Ryan, who do you think is going to win the men's race in Kona this weekend?

Ryan: Oooo, that's a good one. Honestly, I think it's probably going to be, I think Sam. Yeah, it is a tough one. You know, the thing is, the reason why I say this, is on stage you watch them and their demeanors, and Sam has a little bit of that killer look in his eyes. Like he's got his blinders on. He's ready. Patrick might be up there, too. It’s going to be fun. This is definitely a very exciting Men's World Championship.

Andrew: I did, Ryan, correctly called Laura Philipp for the women's race. I just had a vibe about her. I saw her, I was in Kona last year when she placed third. I just had a feeling. I just had this gut feeling. I didn’t say it public on the podcast because it never came up, but I will take credit that I got that one right. I'm going to go Magnus Ditlev, just vibes. He's come close. When he's strong, he looks really freakin’ strong. I'm probably going to be wrong on this one. But that’s what I’m saying, that's what I'm going with. Anyway, that's our picks. I hope everybody that’s listening to this right now enjoyed the race and you can see between Ryan and I how right or wrong we are. That’s the show for today. Love y'all. Okay, bye.

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