TriDot Podcast .241

What Triathletes Can Learn from Cyclists

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Intro: This is the TriDot podcast. TriDot uses yourtraining data and genetic profile, combined with predictive analytics andartificial intelligence to optimize your training, giving you better results inless time with fewer injuries. Our podcast is here to educate, inspire, andentertain. We’ll talk all things triathlon with expert coaches and specialguests. Join the conversation and let’s improve together.

Andrew Harley: Welcome to the TriDot podcast! As much as we love cycling, there is anathlete population that just loves cycling a little bit more. Those are full-oncyclists. While we are balancing swimming with biking and running, cyclists canjust go ride their bike. What a life they have, what a life! Today on the show,we are all set to find out what triathletes can learn about cycling fromcyclists, and we have a great duo on the show to help. Our first guest isprofessional cyclist Florian Vermeersch. He is a Pro Tour rider for Team LottoDstny, and at the moment he is the 55th highest ranked rider in the worldaccording to the UCI points system. He has represented the team twice in theTour de France and once at the Vuelta a España. In 2019 he won the NationalUnder 23 Road Championships in Belgium, in 2021 he placed second overall at thefamous Paris Roubaix, and in 2023 he placed second at the UCI Gravel WorldChampionship . And that is just scratching the surface of Florian's alreadyimpressive résumé . Florian, thanks so much for taking some time to chat with afew triathletes!

Florian Vermeersch: Hi guys, it's my pleasure. It's nice to be onthe podcast.

Andrew:Quick apology for all of our listeners in Spain – we have a healthy athletepopulation at TriDot in Spain, shout-out to those athletes. I am aware that Iprobably just butchered the pronunciation of Vuelta a España, that famous racein your home country, so my apologies there. Also with us is TriDot Coach ChrisNavin from Chicago, Illinois. Chris has raced over 100 triathlons and 250endurance races. He's a Kona finisher, a 38-plus-time marathoner, and a20-plus-time IRONMAN, ranking as high as 9^th in the US and 33^rdin the world in the IRONMAN age-group rankings. Chris is a Level 2 USATriathlon Certified Coach, and Head Endurance Coach of 4-Star Endurance and theTeam to End AIDS. Chris, welcome back to the show!

Chris Navin: It's an honor to be back. Thanks for having me back. And it's fun to behere with a pro cyclist as well!

Andrew:I am Andrew the Average Triathlete, Voice of the People and Captain of theMiddle of the Pack. As always, we'll roll through our warmup question, settlein for our main set conversation, and then wind things down with our cooldown.

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Warm up theme: Time to warm up! Let’s get moving.

Andrew:  Bike saddles and bottoms spend a lot of timetogether, and what bike saddle works for your bottom is a very individualdecision. For our TriDot podcast warmup question today, I want to know how manydifferent bike saddles you think you've used over the years, and what saddleare you getting along with currently. Coach Chris?

Chris:That's a good question. I think I've probably had over two dozen saddles overthe years. Most notably right now, on my time-trial bike and most of my roadbikes I have the ISM Adamo, I think it’s the PN2.1. On different bikes I dohave some different saddles. I have a gravel bike that I'm actually putting anew Selle Italia saddle on. I actually have a road bike that used to be GwenJorgensen's. I wanted to ride it, but it had a female-specific saddle, so I gota male-specific version that was still sponsor-appropriate for her bike, so Ihave a Specialized on that one. But yeah, I'm still working on my gravel bike,so I'd be curious to hear if Florian has any recommendations for gravel bikesaddles, as I'm currently working on that one.

Andrew:Yeah, Florian, you obviously have some experience riding gravel, second in theworld in the World Championships. I'm sure you might have a recommendation on agood gravel saddle for Coach Chris.

Florian:Well, I'm actually using the same one as on my road bike, which is the SelleItalia SLR Boost. I'm using the 3D-print version, it's a bit softer I wouldsay, so it has a little bit more comfort, but it's still pretty competitive. Ithink I'm using it now for three or four years and I never have saddle sores,never have pain on the bottom. Yeah, that one works perfectly for me, sothere's no point in changing for the moment.

Andrew:So Florian, over the years I'm sure you've had the chance to put your butt on alot of different saddles. What is your answer to this warmup question?

Florian:It's difficult to say. In your categories, I’ve definitely used all sorts ofsaddles and all sorts of brands. But to put a number on it, it's difficult. Theonly thing I know, since 2018 when I joined Lotto, we have Selle Italia as asponsor, so I've tested a few of their products, and I came out on the SLRBoost, which I have used since then. But yeah, I’ve tried a few in the past,but I'm sticking to this one now.

Andrew:Yeah, so that's on your gravel bike and your road bike, correct?

Florian:Yeah, the only bike that has a different saddle is my TT bike.

Andrew:So since I've only been in the sport as a cyclist for about ten years now, Icould go back and quantify how many saddles I've ridden on. I was able to count16 different saddles between my TT bike and my road bikes that I have triedover the years. Currently I am using on my triathlon bike, a Dash Stage G3saddle, that's a company out of Colorado. Dash Saddles makes excellent saddles.They’re a little pricey, but my butt gets along with it really well. So theDash Stage is on my triathlon bike, and I have a Fizik Mystica on my road bike.

Guys,we're going to turn this answer over to you, our audience. Make sure you're apart of the I AM TriDot Facebook group. Every Monday when the new show comes out, Ipose this question to Facebook, and the TriDot Instagram account is now postingthese questions as an Insta story. So go find one of those posts and let usknow, how many saddles have you ridden on, and what is your butt getting alongwith currently?

Main set theme: On to the main set. Going in 3…2…1…

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Allright, throw some chamois cream on your undercarriage and toss a gel into yourback pocket. We are talking about cycling today, specifically seeing what wecan learn about cycling from Florian and Coach Chris. Now Florian, you're veryyoung, you have a bright and big career in front of you still. But you'vealready accomplished so much, and it's just a privilege to have you on the showand get to pick your brain about riding bikes. But let's start here today. Howdid you get into cycling in the first place, and when did you realize that youhad the legs to make it on the pro tour?

Florian:It's actually quite a good and funny story. I think when I was nine years old,I was just playing soccer like every Belgian kid. But one day my dad came homeand he said that at the local bike shop he saw a little bike perfect for mysize and he said, “Do you want to try this one out?” At first I had some doubtsbut then I tried it out and said, “Okay, I like this. I want to give it a try.”And then, a few months later we went to the first little race, like I don'tknow, a 10K or 12K race, and I immediately placed second. And I said “Okay, Iwant to continue this.” I quit soccer, I started cycling, and here I am.

Andrew:Very cool. So Florian, in the intro I already listed off several of thebig-time accomplishments you've experienced in your young career. We couldcertainly spend a whole podcast just hearing your stories from the races, butI'm just curious to hear a little bit about you from the races. What would yousay is maybe your favorite memory or accomplishment as a pro rider so far?

Florian:Yeah, the Paris Roubaix was just so special and so nice because it was thefirst wet edition since 2002, if I’m not mistaken. And it came so unexpectedly,but I was really grateful, and it just was a day that I could go on forever andever, somehow I made it to the front group in the final with van der Poel andColbrelli. And although I was really disappointed at first, it stays as one ofmy best memories on the bike, because it's the race I’m looking up to the mostevery year. And to have a podium in that race, and that edition and thoseweather conditions, it was crazy. But then going to last year's World ChampsGravel, it was so unexpected that I could even compete on that course, it wascrazy steep hills. It was a really tough course, and to have legs like that onthat terrain was incredible. The days before I never imagined competing for theWorld Championship jersey. So yeah, those two are my favorite memories.

Andrew:So in both of those races, you didn't start the day thinking necessarily thatyou would be in contention for the win, and all of a sudden you find yourselfpretty deep into the day, you're in the lead pack, you're looking to the leftand right, the caliber of the riders around you are world-class athletes, andyou're about to face off with them for a title in some of those cases. What wasthat like for you?

Florian:Yeah, in the World Championships, I realized with just 50K to go, “Okay, I'mgoing to ride podium, and the title is still at stake.” It's an incrediblefeeling, but at that moment you need to control yourself, and you need to focuson your efforts. Same for Paris Roubaix, with 10K to go, my sport director saidthrough the radio like, “Okay, you're competing for the podium. No one's comingback.” And at that moment I literally had goosebumps, to make that mental clickthat, “Okay, I cannot settle for third, I want to win this.”

Andrew:I know there's certain types of guys, certain types of riders, who are incontention to win grand tours like the Tour de France. And there's certaintypes of riders who are gunning for a big TT stage, or they want to win one ofthe classics. For you, the type of rider you are, the kind of goals that youhave, what are you setting out to accomplish each and every season? What's thedream accomplishment for you in your career?

Florian:Yeah, my biggest goal is still to win a big classic like Paris Roubaix. That'smy biggest goal of my career. That's what I still pray for every day, and why Ibecame a cyclist. But of course the fact of the type of rider like me is that Ican have different goals throughout the season. I have my goals in the firstpart in April with the classics, but then in the second part, in summer,there's the Tour de France. In October you have the World Championships Gravel.And regarding training, it's perfectly doable to schedule the season, and timeyour effort for your best form. That's what I always try to do, to look for afew goals throughout the season. And if one of them doesn't go as planned, noworries, you still have the next one. So mentally, that's also a bit easier.

Andrew:So Chris, you will be the first to admit that you do not have the cyclingpedigree or the power-to-watts ratio of Florian. But for an age-group athleteand a triathlon coach, you do pretty okay on the bike. And you've coached somepure cyclists to some pretty fantastic results. So for anybody listening tothis conversation, I want them to realize why I hand-picked you to be the coachon this episode. So just take a second and let us know, what is your experienceas a cycling coach, and what are some of the results you and your athletes haveseen when it comes to time spent on the bike?

Chris:Yeah, I would say actually because I was watching Florian when you were doingParis Roubaix, I was watching that race live. And if no one's ever seen thatrace, Pari Roubaix, I would encourage everyone to YouTube it. Look it up. Thatfinish is one of the most dramatic finishes you'll see in a bike race, becausethey ride their bike onto a velodrome, and I think Florian and you sprintedearly, and it was like three riders going into that final sprint, and they'recovered in mud. It’s a really unique bike race experience to spectate, and Ican only imagine what that's like to participate in. I'm doing my first biggravel race this year, the Unbound Gravel. But as a coach, I love toincorporate cycling-specific discipline, training, concepts, and visuals in ourtraining studios and with our athletes just to inspire people in differentways. So my background is definitely more recreational from the cyclingperspective, but I've done a little bit of everything. I actually grew up inSwitzerland, and kind of like Florian I guess I played soccer/football growingup, that was the only sport to do. So I would ride a bike while I was inSwitzerland, but then we moved back to the States. But I always had a bikegrowing up, and that was really what got me into the sport. I experimented abit with all different disciplines. I was lucky enough to go to the UCI WorldHeadquarters a couple years ago and do cycling on the velodrome, and BMXcycling on the pump track, and all these different types of disciplines that Ithink you can learn and progress from. But specifically as a coach now, I dowork with a cycling-specific team. So in Chicago it’s xXx Racing-Athletico,which is our big local bike racing team that produces one of the biggest critraces in the US actually. So we have a lot of local pure cyclists that I helpcoach and support. And I've been lucky enough to coach one of our triathleteswho actually crossed over into Esports cycling. She's done some hill climb,road race stuff, but she was on the podium at the UCI World Championships inEsports. So I was lucky enough to work with some really top-end athletes whowon national, and on the podium at the World Championship. So that's a littlebit about my background with this.

Andrew:Yeah, perfect. I'm excited to pick both of your brains when it comes to allthings cycling here, so let's start getting into some of those cyclingquestions. Florian, you currently race for the Belgium-based team Lotto Dstny.You guys have a really sharp blue and red kit, and in my opinion it really popson camera, it's easy to see you guys in the peloton when I'm rooting for you onrace day. So what does training look like when you are on a pro team? Are yougiven a program and you go out and you execute, is it more of team group ridesevery single day, or a mixture of both? Take us inside. What are your workouts,what's the training look like?

Florian:Well, first of all, we have a trainer from the team, so he tells us what to do.But then if they’re not on the race, then most of the guys just train wherethey live or when they're on a training camp. Everybody can choose for theirown. In my case, like if it's the Classic season now and I’m in between races,I stay at home and I train E. But I'm lucky that I have a lot of colleaguesalso from other teams that live close by, and we have a little WhatsApp groupwhere we just put in a message like, “Anyone up for a four-hour ride today?”Then if there are a few candidates then we meet somewhere in the middle andjust have a nice ride. Then going to the races, we meet at the hotel from theteam like two days in advance, and then the day before we all put together alittle recovery ride, and then race day is of course together.

Andrew:Yeah, sure. So I'm curious, when you do one of those group rides with someother Pro Tour riders that live near you, what is the vibe like on those rides?Do you guys talk shop at all? Do you just kind of leave the racing to the sideand just ride around as friends? Do you trash talk at all and compete, orcompare notes? What's the conversation like on those group rides when you'retraining with some cyclists from rival teams?

Florian:Yeah, most of the group rides, I think the audience can probably relate, we’rejust a bunch of guys, basically kids, that trash talk all the time. Of coursewe talk about the races, but we try to keep it light and just try to make it asnice and as funny as possible. Just talk about other things, all sorts ofstuff, which is fun. It doesn’t always have to be too serious, especially on along ride. And it's nice if from time to time we can have a good laugh.

Andrew:So there's definitely some things that I'm sure pro cyclists do in theirtraining, that triathletes should just leave for the pro cyclists and not tryto copycat. But there's some things that we can implement into our own trainingjust on the habits of pro cyclists. And Coach Chris, you're well in tune withboth the training regimen of a TriDot athlete and the training regimen of a procyclist like Florian and Team Lotto Dstny. What would you say here, Chris? Whatare some things we can learn from the training habits of these pro cyclists?

Chris:Well, I unfortunately have not been coaching a Pro Tour team, but I would loveto at some point. But there are some things that we take away with our localbike racing team and pure cyclists compared to triathletes. I think the biggestthing triathletes can learn from cyclists is just the benefits overall of whatwe generally call Zone 2 training or lower-intensity training, but highervolume. As your training volume goes up – just riding, going out for rides withfriends, spending time on the bike – that actually builds your aerobic base,your mitochondrial density, your ability to produce more power over time. And alot of that is just based on putting time in the saddle literally, regardlessof intensity. So I think a lot of triathletes can use that as an opportunityand say, “Maybe I do want to do a training block where I train like a cyclist,and just put more time.” Maybe instead of 100 miles in a week, do 200 or 300.The Pro Tours are doing training camps, and in a week they're easily doing 500-plusmiles a week, probably more. I'd be curious to hear what Florian’s top mileagesare for a week of training. So that's one big component, the other bigcomponent is just team-based training, training with other people. A lot oftriathletes do solo work all the time, but being in a competitive environmentlike Florian was saying, just going out and riding with a group of friends,things happen. People will do sprints, they'll put more time in, they'll staytogether longer, and they'll push each other to that next level. I’ll use thephrase “iron sharpens iron”, just putting yourself in those team environmentshelps a lot. Then there's also the really cycling-specific training. When youlook at different types of cycling – whether it's BMX, or track, or cyclocross,or gravel – what are the different things that those cyclists do to continue topush themselves to the next level? I've found for myself, every time I putmyself in those uncomfortable environments – like my first time tryingcyclocross or first time trying BMX, or my first time going on a velodrome – Ifelt like I learned more, and I kind of upped my cycling another level, anothernotch. Whether it's being on a fixed-gear bike, or even on the trainer doingisolated leg training with one-leg drills, little things like that can really,really help. In addition to thinking like a cyclist, if you're not just doingendurance steady-state all the time, you might want to work your other energysystems. Doing sprint work and VO2 intervals in addition to that Zone 2, that'sreally that special one-two punch that pure cyclists do a lot more of thantriathletes.

Florian:For me, I need a lot of intensity because I'm a type of rider that cannaturally adapt to big volumes. I'm used to that, I can handle it well. But Ineed to have a lot of intensity, and train on the one-minute, two-minuteefforts to really be able to have a punch, that push in the final. But thenwhen I go to Tour de France, for example, I do a lot more longer blocks, a lotmore thresholds around VO2 as well. Just because on the Tour, you're going torace three weeks, so you need to be ready for the long efforts, for the longclimbs. It's not like in Flanders, where it's a two-minute climb, recovery,then another two-minute. It’s efforts of more than 30 minutes, 40 minutes, soit requires a bit of a different approach. And I can imagine one for triathletesis the same. I think if you do an IRONMAN, you need to do really long hours, alot of biking, swimming, and running. That's where I think in TriDot you canlook a bit at the different types of races and cycling and compare it a littlebit.

Andrew:I totally understand what you mean. Florian, what is the ceiling on how manymiles or kilometers you might clock in one of your longest training weeks?

Florian:Kilometers? I don't know, I should check. It probably was on the Tour, it wouldbe around 1,200 kilometers. But I think in hours, my longest week was 37 hoursof bike riding. So yeah, it's quite a lot.

Andrew:What's wild about that is that for a lot of us, in our day-to-day job, we mightspend 40 hours a week sitting at a desk doing our job. And you're spending thatsame amount of time sitting on a saddle, riding a bike, and that's YOUR job.It's just so wild to me, that much time on a bike. Chris, something I want tosay about TriDot training, in relation to what Florian is sharing about histraining regimen – TriDot doesn't know what race an athlete has coming up. Soif you're racing long-course, it's going to have you in the saddle a certainamount of time. If you're racing shorter-course, you might not need all thosehours in the saddle. You might need those hours going towards running andswimming and some other things. But TriDot is always aware of what your nextrace is, and it's going to give you the hours you need in the saddle to makesure you're ready for that particular race. With that said, I do know we havecoaches that for one reason or another might take a certain athlete, and for ablock of training they might emphasize some extra time on the bike. Maybethey're trying to get stronger at that discipline for a certain goal that theathlete has. Or maybe they signed them up for a time-trial event, or some critracing on the bike. So there can be some gains to be had by spending some extratime on the bike, and that's part of the beauty of working with a coachone-on-one, is as a coach might be able to identify a spot in the season wherethat might be advantageous to you, based on some goals that you have.

Butgetting back to the Pro Tour, Florian I'm aware that not every rider from theteam competes in every race. Furthermore, there are different types of eventson the team calendar. There's the Grand Tours and the Classics, that are themost famous events for sure. But there's also more to the race calendar I'msure than races I’m even familiar with. How does the race schedule in a seasonshape up for you as a rider, and how often are you racing for the team indifferent types of events?

Florian:I'm fortunate enough to be one of the leaders of the team, so I can have my ownopinion on the schedule and how to plan for the season. So basically in aroundOctober and November, we have team days where we sit together with the sportsmanager, trainers, and every sport director. And we take a look at the racesfor the next year and they ask, “What races do you want to do? How do you seethis, this, and this?” Then we come to a race schedule, let's say, until Tourde France, because that's from February until July. And if everything goes welland you stick to that schedule, your trainer knows what to do. He knows when toplan the right training, and when to taper, for example. From then on it'sbasically autopilot, just trust in my coach and tick off the training that heasks me to do.

Andrew:Yeah, so I actually just yesterday on Instagram happened to see a video wherePrecision Fuel & Hydration – they are the nutrition sponsor of Team LottoDstny, and a partner of TriDot as well. So shout-out to Andy Blow and his teamfrom Precision Fuel & Hydration, we're great friends with them. They postedan Instagram video where they tagged along with one of your teammates for afull day of training. They were there first thing in the morning as he fired uphis coffee maker and made his espresso shot and his breakfast. Then he got onhis tablet for the team orders for the day on what his workout was going to be,and they followed along on his workout. Total coincidence that I saw that videoyesterday before talking with you today. But it was just really cool to get apeek at what the day and the fueling of a Pro Tour cyclist looks like. But I'mcurious Florian, as a cyclist, as you're getting your team orders and you'relearning what races you're being picked for, you're included in the squad – forall the riders, is the Tour de France the big thing, like everybody wants tomake the team for the Tour? Or depending on the rider, are there differentgoals and different things you might want throughout the season? It seems, as afan, that that's the race to be a part of, like that would be the dream is tobe on the team for the Tour de France. But maybe that's not the case, what doyou think?

Florian:Yes, I think like you said, the Tour is the most prestigious event of the yearmaybe, and everybody wants to ride. I think it’s the most broadcasted event inthe world, or in Europe at least, so everybody, everybody wants to be there.

Andrew:And you now, Florian, have done three Grand Tours for the team. You've beenbehind the scenes a few times now. I always read articles, and I see the mediacoverage that goes a little bit behind the scenes of what it takes for theseteams, to move all the riders all around the country for three weeks. Thesupport team it takes, the mechanics, the bike techs, the chefs and thenutrition, the team bus, there's just so much to it. What's it like behind thescenes for the rider, to be on team for Tour de France, a part of that scenefor three weeks?

Florian:It's a roller coaster. Every day something's happening. Your shape can bedifferent from the day before, that's something you have to take into account.But otherwise it's like being in a bubble. You just constantly in your racebubble. I can always compare it the best when I come home and then I realizedlike, “Shit, my day is not planned anymore.” In the Tour, everything is madefor you, they do your laundry, they tell you what time you have to wake up,what time you have to go to the bus, what time you have massage, what time themeeting is, and departure time. Yeah, you don't have to think about anything,you just have to think about racing, nutrition, and sleeping. That's all. Andof course it's a very tiring event too, so you need every moment of rest sothat it's good. But yeah, it's a completely different world, when you come homeyou're like, “How does life work?”

Andrew:What a unique human experience. So I mentioned just a little bit ago ourfriends at Precision Fuel & Hydration, and when they first became a teamsponsor, I was talking to Andy about it, and just asked him how thatrelationship was going and what they were learning. And Andy was working withthis team, and he was like, “It is unreal how many calories, and how muchhydration these guys can put down week-to-week, month-to-month, as the seasongoes on.” He said it is just unreal how much fuel these athletes require fortheir training and racing. And I'm sure you are very intentional with what goesinto your body during a race. Floridan, what do you think triathletes can learnfrom how cyclists fuel?

Florian:Yeah, it's super important. It's one of the key factors in cycling. Basically,when you’re in the race, you just try to hit that 120 grams of carbs per hour.In terms of Precision Hydration, for me it's two bottles and one gel, or twogels and one bottle, or one bottle and a half. You always need to calculate,“Okay, how much do I have in my system? Do I have to eat more?” You always haveto calculate, and sometimes it's difficult, but it's so important because itreally makes a difference in the final. If you forget to eat one gel halfwaythrough the stage, it can cost you the victory at the end. It's as simple asthat. When it comes to eating foods, like dinner, and how much can we consume,it's the same. I keep track of my calories as well, and on a big day at GrandTour you easily hit 6,000 to 7,000 calories without any problem.

Andrew:Florian, I'm curious. That number, 100 grams of carbohydrate per day, do youtry to hit that every day in training, or is that just for race events, or doesit vary based on what you're doing in your training? Talk to us about how muchyour fueling needs change based on what's going on.

Florian:No, on long, easy rides I try to get between 45 and 60 grams per hour. I wantto stimulate the fat oxidation, and to teach my body how to cope with lessercarbs in your system or lesser glycogen levels. I think that is also importantto train. But on the interval days, I’ll try to hit 90 or 100 grams per hour.But it all depends on what type of training you're doing. It's a rest day, orwhen you do one-hour Z2 rides, then you don't need carbs, it's not necessary.But you need to be fueled for the right type of ride.

Andrew:I will remind our audience listening today – you are not a Pro Tour rider, so alot of these numbers that Florian is throwing out, they're meant for Pro Tourriders, so don't try to necessarily copy exactly what you're hearing from him.We actually do have a podcast episode where Andy Blow from Precision Fuel &Hydration talks about how many grams of carbohydrate and stuff per hour we asage-groupers should be hitting, and it's obviously very individual from athleteto athlete. Coach Chris, from your seat as a coach in the sport who is wellfamiliar with the fueling habits of cyclists, what do you think we can learnfrom how cyclists fuel?

Chris:Yeah, I think context is important, right? If they're doing a Grand Tour stage,they are riding the bulk of the day, maybe at lower intensity, but then theyhave these hard, hard efforts where it’s threshold or above. So they're burninga lot more sugar on those points of their races, and they need to fuel withmore sugars as a result of that. But also context is important in terms of bodysize. And Florian, I don’t know if they do anything different for you, but on aPro team, they might have some riders who are 120-pound climbers, and then theyhave workhorse, diesel-engine guys who are the time trial specialists, and theymight weigh 50% more that some of their counterparts. So I'd be curious,Florian, if they guide your fueling based on body size, if you're a largerrider versus some of the other guys on the team, or if they're all doing 100grams, 120 grams as the goal. But usually with triathletes at least, that'swhat I typically try to look at, is don't let yourself get caught up in thinkinglike, “Oh, the pros are doing 100 to 120 grams an hour these days, maybe Ishould be doing that.” If they're doing the harder surges they need to betraining their guts to do more, but also body size matters. And for womenversus men, or different body sizes, we might need different fueling amounts.So usually I encourage people to always look at those numbers and divide bybody size, and put that into context as well, because I think that's a prettyimportant thing. Then also environmental stuff too – in the Tour, they might begoing up the top of a mountain where it's really cold, and they might be downin hotter climates where it's summer weather. We as triathletes, as we trainfor events, thinking about how we fuel in colder climates versus warmer climatescan matter as well. It's a multivariate equation really to dial in fueling. Ithink that's really the main takeaway, is to understand that you need to figureout what works for you, and then also experiment with those differentenvironments and different situations that you can put yourself in.

Andrew:Definitely on the podcast, whenever we talk with our nutrition experts – likeAndy Blow from Precision Fuel & Hydration, Dr. Krista Austin, or ScottTindal from Fuelin, who has the Fuelin app that TriDot is integrated with,which helps athletes hit their exact numbers they need to support theirtraining and racing – several methods, but they all advocate for knowing yourbody, and knowing what your body needs at your weight, your effort level, andyour age. Several factors could play into what you need to consume as anathlete. And I'm curious, Florian, for the team – there are smaller riders,there's bigger riders, the riders on your team all have different weights,heights, different body builds. Is every athlete on the team taking in asimilar amount of calories, or grams of carbohydrate per hour? Or does the teamnutritionist really vary it from athlete to athlete?

Florian:During the race, I think the goal is for everybody to aim for the same amountof carbohydrates per hour, that means around 100 or 150 grams. But of course itdepends on which type of rider you are, and how much you can handle. I knowsome guys don't take 100 grams per hour and still feel fine. But what ournutritionists and the team do is look at the power output at the end of thestage, and based on that they calculate the recovery meal and the meal in theevening.

Andrew:Oh wow.

Florian:That meal is different for every rider. Because like you say, a small riderdoesn't need the same amount of carbs to refill the glycogen after a race,versus a big guy who pushed 40 watts more average during the whole day. That'swhat they do at the team, they look at the power output and see, “Okay, the bigguy needs 100 grams of pasta more than the smaller guy.” That's why we have thescale, we have our own nutrition plan, and everybody can look at their phonesand they have their personalized meal plan in front of them.

Andrew:Yeah, very cool. So in triathlon, there actually are draft-legal triathlonevents. It's definitely a thing, they're very, very fun. You get out there on aroad bike and can ride as a pack and all that jazz. But most triathlons aretime-trials. So as a triathlete, I am always just enormously sucked in watchingthe stages of Grand Tours that are time trials. I'm curious Florian, how muchof your training is time-trial specific, and what can triathletes learn fromcyclists in regards to performing well in a TT?

Florian:Hmm, difficult to say. Of course, time-trial consumes a lot of time. You need aperfect position, you need to spend a lot of hours on the bike to becompetitive, and try to have good enough accident timing. But for me, I firstfocus on the Classics, because I don't have any time-trial before June I think.So I just focus on the Classics, and when I start training after the Classicsin April, I train a lot more on my TT bike. I know a couple of triathletes, andin triathlon they are paying a lot more attention to the aero aspect.

Andrew:But Florian, I’m curious when it comes to the time trial, because you justspend so much more time on the bike than we do. A lot of triathletes will trainindoors sometimes, and they get on the TT bike for certain hours at othertimes. But I'm curious if there's anything you do extra special to helpoptimize that aero position on the bike, or improve your ability to hold aeroposition on the bike. Is it just time on bike and spending as much time as youcan in that position? Or is there any strength training or mobility orflexibility or something that you can recommend to our triathlete audience, tomaybe further their ability to hold aero in the time-trial position?

Florian:Well, I do a lot of core exercises. The physiotherapist where we train, thespecific muscle groups to train that position, but also to be flexible. I'msure you know if you're flexible in the hamstrings, then you can get a moreaero position on the bike, something we also train on. And yeah, of coursebeing used to the bike and feeling comfortable in the right position is superimportant, but first you need to be strong and flexible enough to get thatposition and maintain that. If you combine those two things, the comfort andthe strength, then you can hold your position for whatever time it takes. Thenit’s no problem.

Andrew:I really want our audience today to catch that from Florian right there.Because we as triathletes all know it – we're so quick to buy some new carbonwheels, or to buy the latest and greatest and slippery aero technology, or allthese gizmos and gadgets that might add three watts here, seven watts there. Wework so hard in the training to raise that FTP number so that FTP number lookssexy on Strava. But we're very quick to skip out on our flexibility andmobility training, and there is so much speed to be gained, and there's so muchmore power we can generate, if we just spend the proper time making sure ourbodies are flexible, and we can hold aero just that much better, produce powerfrom that position that much better. And you heard it from Florian right there– they spend time with the team physio, they spend time in training, makingsure they're as flexible as possible to get those aero gains and produce powerout of that position. Coach Chris, is there anything that you want to add tothis part of the conversation?

Chris:Yeah, I think it goes both ways, too. I think a lot of triathletes learn fromwatching the Pro Tour riders, and a lot of the Pro Tour take the lessonslearned, or we see trends in the industry, based on what triathletes do.Sometimes that spills over into the time-trialing or the pure cyclist space.But yeah, the flexibility and the strength to get in the right position isimportant, and the fit can be different for someone who's doing just a one-hourtime trial that most of the pure cyclists are doing, versus doing five or sixhours or more on the bike, as in the case of full IRONMAN athletes. That fit,you might not be able to hold that same position for so long.  So I think that strength and flexibility ishuge, but also just how focused they get with the bike fit. Bike fit is reallyimportant, and making sure your equipment, like your kit, is as aerodynamic aspossible, because that's all free speed. There's some pretty big gains that youcan get from just looking over your bike, looking over your gear, and reallyhaving a quick review of how you get that free speed. And it doesn't need to bethe giant new parachute helmets, it can be in other areas as well.

Andrew:Florian, what are your thoughts on the new giant helmets that have hit socialmedia in the last couple of weeks?

Florian:Actually, when you see them in that time-trial position, it actually made senseto me. But yeah, still the aesthetics are also important. If I was sure that Iwas gaining 15 watts by just wearing the helmet, for sure I would do it.

Andrew:The relationship between the athlete and the bike is on a whole other levelwhen it comes to Pro Tour riders. And when it comes to taking care of our biketo setting up our bike, performing strong at the races on our bike – Florian,Chris, what advice do you have for a triathlon audience who might not be aswell-versed in taking care of their bike, or maybe not as comfortable ridingtheir bike around tight corners as a pro cyclist?

Florian:A few years ago we were doing a training ride with a group of friends, and wewere making an echelon on a windy part. And you could see the differencebetween the three or four ride leads and the road cyclist, like how close theywere on the wheel, and how much space they left in between the riders. That issomething of course for a non-draft event, but they can really learn how to sittight on the wheel, and gain, and just follow the rider in front of you. Andthe bike setup is also very important. If I look now at how much we payattention to the right tire setup, the right tire pressure, it's hugelyimportant, and I think it goes the same for triathlon. I think everybody'sreally looking for the best setup and the best tire pressure to tackle thedescents. I'm sure everybody is paying as much attention there as in roadcycling.

Andrew:Yeah, I would absolutely encourage anybody in the audience, if it's in yourbudget and you're not already doing this, to pick up a road bike and startjoining some group rides, where every so often you ride with a pack of roadcyclists. You'll learn a lot, just by watching the way they the way they set uptheir bike, handle their bike, the corners these guys are taking, the linesthey're taking as they go in and out of turns as a pack, and off in the bikeshops the way they take care of bikes. That's definitely a way to up the antefor your knowledge and your feel on the bike, and you’ll have a good time aswell. Coach Chris, do you have anything to add here in terms of a triathletegetting more in tune with taking care of and handling your bike?

Chris:Yeah, I think it's really just about playing around, and spending the time tolearn about your equipment – how to take care of it, learn how to lube a chain,the basic bike maintenance stuff. We’ve done a video or podcast on thatalready. But just play around with the bike. Have a day, maybe it's a Zone 2day, where you don’t go on the trainer, but just go for an outdoor ride. Justexplore a new area, get comfortable with being a little bit uncomfortable onyour bike maybe, like going on rougher terrain, or going into a parking lot anddoing little circles, doing figure-8 drills. Usually when we do our trainingcamp with our local bike racing team, we have a day that's kind of like arecovery day, and we spend a couple hours working on bike handling skills –like how to do emergency braking, how to pick something up off the ground, howto do a track stand, how to bump elbows with somebody while riding, how to bumpheads, put your hand on their shoulder, going downhills doing cornering at highspeed, learning counter-steering, that sort of thing. Put yourself in thoseenvironments where you just build a little. You might be uncomfortable andunconfident when you start, but then you get that confidence to develop yourbike handling skills. I think that's really important for any cyclist. And youcan do a lot of that still with a time-trial bike, but you might need to getonto a road bike for some of that as well. So embrace those opportunities to goon training camps, train with friends, go out on group rides, and thatultimately is what I think every triathlete can learn from their cyclingfriends. Try to have at least one pure cyclist friend, and you'd be surprisedhow much you can learn from them.

Andrew:Two more questions for Florian, and then we'll shut it down and call it a dayand move into the cooldown for our Coach Cooldown Tip of the Week. And this isone of the top questions that I was excited to ask you today Florian, so I'mvery curious to see what you have to say. Over the years, I've seen a fewathletes try to make the crossover between pro cycling and pro triathlon. Ithink of American Andrew Talansky, who raced a few IRONMAN events afterretiring from pro cycling, and currently pro triathlete Cam Wurf races on thePro Tour for Team Ineos Grenadiers, so obviously we are all rooting for Cam todo well there. So he'll jump into an IRONMAN triathlon and race on acompetitive level, and then two weeks later he's riding on a Grand Tour for TeamIneos. It's so cool and so wild to see. Florian, what is your take on this?Both you personally and the guys you rub shoulders with on the tour, how do youguys feel about these pro athletes who are trying to cross over and do bothwhen it comes to triathlon and pro cycling?

Florian:I really admire them, and encourage them to come and give it a try in procycling. Yeah, I'm a big fan of triathlon, IRONMAN in general. I think it's thefirst thing I'll do when I retire from cycling is to train for an IRONMAN.Because yeah, I was in training camp in the Sierra Nevada last year, and therewere a lot of triathletes there. I could see them train, and I have big respectfor those guys, because it starts early in the morning with swimming, then theygo for a bike ride, and then when I was on the bed in the afternoon, I couldsee them running on the track. So yeah, there's a lot of training going intoit, and I have a huge amount of respect for all triathletes out there,especially if it's amateur triathletes who still have a daily job. Yeah, I havea huge amount of respect

Andrew:Well Florian, when the time comes for you to make that transition from cyclistto triathlete, we do know a training program that we can recommend to you. Justlet me know, and we'll see if we can get you hooked up with a TriDotsubscription for you to do TriDot workouts as you train towards your triathlongoals. Florian, last question for you for today, I want to slip this one inhere. We do have athletes that follow the Pro Tour, absolutely, for sure, onehundred percent. Why should any of those athletes listening today choose toroot for Team Lotto Dstny?

Florian:Ah, good question. I think our team has a lot of youngsters, a lot of excitingnew talent coming up. Our philosophy in racing is we want to make the raceexciting. We want to race for the win, but we don't want to just follow thebunch or follow the attacks, we want to make them ourselves. We always try tomake the race interesting, to create a good situation, and that's what makesracing exciting. We always go for the attack, we are not here to follow and tostick around.

Cool down theme: Great set everyone! Let’s cool down.

Vanessa Ronksley: Hey friends, it's cooldown time, and I'mVanessa, your Average Triathlete with Elite-Level Enthusiasm! Today on thecooldown, I am so excited for my very own coach to be here with me, because aday where I get to see Ryan is always a great day. Now a few words that I woulduse to describe him are humble, patient, encouraging, kind, and funny. And Ialso have to tell you that my favorite thing about Ryan is that he's alwaysthere when you need him, even if you don't know that you need him. Ryan is onstaff with TriDot and holds the role of Business Coach, and he is also afounding Master Coach. He has been coaching for over ten years, and has been atriathlete for more than 22 years. He has tons of racing experience, from 70.3sincluding Worlds, to fulls, and has completed over 50 half-marathons. Ryan'scoaching specialty is beginners all the way through to Kona qualifiers. He isexperienced with swimming and running technique, and he is a CrossFit coach.Ryan lives in Fort Worth with his beautiful wife and his two pups, Zoe andMila. Welcome to the cooldown, Ryan!

Ryan Tibball: Thank you, Vanessa! So excited to be here, and really looking forwardto hopefully giving a very great tip.

Vanessa:Oh, I know with all of my heart that it's going to be a great tip. But what Idon't know is this little known fact about you that I may have just learned afew minutes ago. So Ryan loves race bling, and we're talking the bigger, theglitzier, the better. So I want to know, what is the most extravagant piece ofrace bling that you have earned?

Ryan:Uh, I think that really does come from the event that we actually have here inthe DFW Metroplex called the Double Double. It occurs on New Year's Eve and NewYear's Day.

Vanessa:Fun!

Ryan:Yeah, it's a lot of fun. So basically you have a choice – a 5K and ahalf-marathon, or a full marathon. Then on New Year's Day, same thing. So youend up with four medals. Now it's not just getting the four medals, theyactually give you a giant plate. You know, I'm going to go date myself here,but for those that know who Flavor Flav was, back in the day he was a bigrapper guy who wore this giant clock, it's huge. Well, these medals are thatbig. They're enormous, and you can mount all those different medals on there.The other cool thing about this too is, if you win age-group awards, they arechampagne flutes. So I’ve got a nice collection of champagne flutes, it’sreally cool.

Vanessa:Oh, that’s awesome!

Ryan:So I whip those out New Year's night and celebrate with my champagne flutes.

Vanessa:That's good. Okay, so champagne flutes for New Year's Eve, and then mimosas forNew Year's Day.

Ryan:Right. Yeah, absolutely, right after a good run on New Year's Day.

Vanessa:Yeah, that's so cool. All right, now we're here for a tip. What is your tip forall of us today?

Vanessa:Big Gear Workout. Now this is very specific on a particular workout on thebike. Bike-ISH, because we're not exactly on the bike all the time for Big GearWorkout. We're doing those heavy dosing of our Zone 5 efforts, and yet we stillneed to get off and do some squatting, some isometric squat holds, which arehonestly my favorite things. Because as a CrossFit coach too, this is justbeautiful for developing that leg strength, developing that time under tension.It's such a great workout. But a big question that is often brought up, andI've seen it on the I AM TriDot page is, “Do I take my shoes off, or leave themon? What do I do with them?” And from the perspective of a coach, and as afunctional mobility-type coach as CrossFit, I will say that taking the shoesoff is the right thing to do.

Vanessa:Yeah?

Ryan:Now some people are going to beg the question like, “Well, doesn't that taketime?” Hold on. So we take our shoes off so we can actually squat well, we cansquat properly. So we can avoid injury, which is so important, guys. So you'rehammering away, your legs are already fatigued on the bike. You get off, andyou're trying to squat on an uneven surface because your cleats are throwingyou off. So you tweak an ankle, you tweak a hip or your back, and that's thelast thing we want to see happen to you. So as a coach, I always say take yourshoes off. Now here's the cool part, treat it like a transition.

Vanessa:Ah hah!

Ryan:This is your opportunity to practice transitioning quickly. So you dismount thebike, take those shoes off, get to your isometric holds, get to your squatting.Then when you're finished in those time domains, put those shoes on as quicklyas you can, just like you're transitioning. Again, have that vision, have thatmentality of, “I'm transitioning quickly here, and I'm going to get right backon the bike.” And mount up, and you’re ready to rock and roll. Repeatedly, soyou get many opportunities through your Big Gear Workout to do that. So it's alot of fun. Yeah, you may be walking funny for a day or two, so what? That's agood thing, absorb it. It's awesome.

Vanessa:You've earned it! You've earned that discomfort, right? And the wincing facecontortions that we all make after Big Gear Workout day.

Ryan:Yes, absolutely.

Vanessa:That's great. So when you're actually doing the Big Gear Workout, I'm curioushow you orchestrate your timing. Do you have a phone next to you and you'repressing lap buttons? How do you do that?

Ryan:Actually it's funny. We had not talked about this, but yes I actually do have atimer on my phone, and yes absolutely I have it running. So I know exactly howlong it's actually taking me to transition, how long it's taking me toisometric hold, how long it's taking me to squat, and how long to transitionback. So yes, I have a running clock on my phone that does that, it's like astopwatch. Essentially you can use a stopwatch. Yeah, absolutely.

Vanessa:Because then you can make sure that you're getting the full time allotted foreach of the segments, like you're getting your full 30-second isometric hold,and your full 30-second of squatting, despite the fact that you spent a littlebit of time taking your shoes off or putting them back on.

Ryan:Exactly.

Outro:Thanks for joining us. Make sure to subscribe and share the TriDot podcast withyour triathlon crew. For more great tri content and community, connect with uson Facebook, YouTube, and Instagram. Ready to optimize your training? Head totridot.com and start your free trial today! TriDot – the obvious and automaticchoice for triathlon training.

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