Intro: This is the TriDot podcast. TriDot uses your training data and genetic profile, combined with predictive analytics and artificial intelligence to optimize your training, giving you better results in less time with fewer injuries. Our podcast is here to educate, inspire, and entertain. We’ll talk all things triathlon with expert coaches and special guests. Join the conversation and let’s improve together.

Andrew Harley: Welcome to the TriDot podcast! There are a number of products on the marketplace that promise to boost our body’s ability to recover. Today I have two experts on the show here to tell us what works, how it works, and maybe what doesn’t work as much as advertised. Lots of good stuff coming your way! Our key guide for this talk is our resident nutritional expert, Dr. Krista Austin. Krista is an exercise physiologist and nutritionist who consulted with the U.S. Olympic Committee and the English Institute of Sport. She has a Ph.D. in Exercise Physiology and Sports Nutrition, a Master’s degree in Exercise Physiology, and is a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist. Krista, welcome back to the show!

Krista Austin: Thanks for having me again, Harley, I’m excited to come at this one.

Andrew: Joining us for this conversation as well is pro triathlete and coach, Elizabeth James. Elizabeth is a USAT Level II and IRONMAN U Certified Coach, who quickly rose through the triathlon ranks using TriDot, from a beginner, to top agegrouper, to a professional triathlete. She is a Kona and Boston Marathon qualifier who has coached triathletes with TriDot since 2014. Elizabeth, welcome back!

Elizabeth James: Thank you so much, it’s great to be here today!

Andrew: I am Andrew the Average Triathlete, Voice of the People and Captain of the Middle of the Pack. As always, we’ll roll through our warmup question, settle in for our main set conversation, and then wind things down with our Vanessa interviewing a TriDot coach on the cooldown. Lots of good stuff, let’s get to it!

Warm up theme: Time to warm up! Let’s get moving.

Andrew: No matter how nutritiously disciplined you are as an individual, we all have a snack or a treat that is a weakness for us. As in, if it’s in the house, we’re going to eat more of that food item than we probably should. Elizabeth, Krista, for our warmup question today, what is a notso-super-healthy food that you simply cannot resist if it’s in the room? Elizabeth James?

Elizabeth: I think some of our listeners probably already know the answer to this one. I’ve talked about it before, my love of chocolate and ice cream. Put those together, if there is chocolate ice cream in the room, that is going to be really, really hard for me to pass up. I’ll probably have a serving, if not going back for seconds.

Andrew: What’s your feeling on vanilla or other flavors? Are those also a weakness, or is specifically chocolate ice cream, you’re going to pound it?

Elizabeth: Vanilla is not the same. Charles has some caramel ice cream in the freezer right now that doesn’t tempt me at all. But man, if it was chocolate in there, you can bet that I’d be have some of that. It’s just the chocolate.

Andrew: Is there a specific brand or flavor that is your goto, or are you just impartial? If it’s chocolate ice cream, you’re all over it?

Elizabeth: When we lived in Nebraska, it was actually the Hy-Vee grocery store brand, the plain chocolate ice cream. I absolutely loved it.

Andrew: Never heard of it.

Elizabeth: Down here in Texas, Blue Bell is a favorite, but it’s also this private selection double fudge mousse-something. It’s like chocolate with fudge in there, so it’s like chocolate on chocolate on chocolate. Yeah, that would be extremely hard to resist.

Andrew: All right, while we were talking about ice cream, I just had to follow up and get some specifics there on your preferences. Dr. Austin, what is this answer for you?

Krista: I have so many, to be honest. I’m not sure I can choose just one. I would say anything chocolate or salt-based like a chip is truly a weak point for me. If you come into my house you're going to be like, “Oh, she has nothing in here at present, I wonder why?” Well, it’s because if it’s there, I’m going to keep going back and going back for it. So typically what I try to do is just keep it for a trip out, making a trip out here and there. I think because I do hold back on a regular basis, once I do get around certain sweet or salty treats I’m like, “Ooh, let’s eat them all!” I think I actually have to be more careful than some people. If I go over to the Walgreens or CVS next to my house and just walk down the candy aisle, it’s like, “Ooh, there’s Hot Tamales! Ooh, there’s Sugar Babies! Ooh, there’s Riesens!” Yeah, we just have to walk out of the store at that point.

Andrew: Yeah, the Walgreens candy aisle can definitely be dangerous. They’ve got a lot of great movie snacks and stuff there, all in one place, on one shelf. Now Krista, you referenced that when you splurge, you really splurge and you splurge hard. What was the last occasion you can think of where you did that?

Krista: Gosh, we had a big sort of finale here at the end of March, and I was so stressed that whole time, it was not great at all in terms of ability to do anything balanced with nutrition. Afterward I’m like, “The candy, just give me some of each of it, because we just finished this.” I do recall having some of each of those candies, and even going out for a dinner here at one of the Mexican restaurants in town and just enjoying the chips and salsa and the fajitas. It was one of those things where you’re like, “Oh thank goodness it’s over.” I will say it was not that long ago, almost a month ago, but that was definitely a time where I said okay. But if you come in right now you’d be like, “Wow, there’s not a lot of excitement in your kitchen, Krista.”

Andrew: Nothing wrong with that! If it’s not in the pantry, you can’t eat it. That is definitely a motto in our household. We are strategic when we do. The answer I actually wrote down for this question is Sweet Tart jelly beans. When we were in Target the other day, my wife decided to try a couple different brands of jelly beans. We got Sour Patch Kids jelly beans, Starburst jelly beans, and we got Sweet Tart jelly beans. I have never had the Sweet Tart ones or the Sour Patch ones before. Those were new for us, and she mixed them all in the same bin. I just thought, “Oh, those aren’t Jelly Belly, so I’m going to be able to ignore that bin very easily.” That was false, because I had to try them. The Starburst and Sour Patch ones were okay, but the Sweet Tart jelly beans were exceptional. They were very good, very unique for a jelly bean. So I had one night in particular where I was on the couch holding Baby Girl, we’re just watching TV, and I just went snack-city on some Sweet Tart jelly beans. I felt awful for the rest of the evening, so I had to bring that one up. We’re going to throw this question out to your our audience. I know everybody has some sort of weakness, and I’m curious to hear what yours is. So make sure you’re a part of the on the I AM TriDot Facebook group. I’m going to throw this question out the day this episode comes out like I always do, so find the post and let us know what is that food snack weakness for you?

Main set theme: On to the main set. Going in 3…2…1…

Andrew: Back on Episode .101 of the TriDot podcast, we learned from sports scientist Andy Blow that there isn’t a onesize-fits-all approach to hydration, because everyone loses a different amount of salt in their sweat. As someone with a high sweat rate and someone who suffered from cramping in the past, I’ve been very keen to get a better understanding from Andy on how much salt I lose in my sweat. So when he joined us at TriDot Ambassador Camp in St. George, I had him give me a sweat test. I found out that I lose more than 12,000 milligrams of sodium per liter of sweat. After taking the test I received a personalized hydration plan, and was recommended their strongest electrolyte drink, PH 1500, which is three times stronger than most sports drinks. It has absolutely been a game-changer for me, particularly since I train in hot conditions. If you’ve ever struggled with hydration issues in the past, it is worth checking precisionfuelandhydration.com, and finding your nearest center for a sweat test. You can also use their Fuel and Hydration Planner to get free personalized strategies for race day. And don’t forget, as a listener of the show, you can get 10% off your very first order of electrolytes and fueling products by using the code TRI23 when checking out.

From food items to dietary supplements and recovery drinks, there are so many things on the market today that promise to help boost our bodies’ ability to recover from the training and racing that we all do. If you are like me, you simply don’t have the time or the wallet to buy and try everything that claims it can help you out. So that’s why I’ve enlisted Dr. Krista Austin and pro triathlete Elizabeth James to help us sort through what is genuinely a great product, and what might not be worth our time and money. Now Dr. Austin, you have joined the show quite a bit to talk about nutrition, fueling, hydration, etc., so I know our listeners associate your name with food episodes, and there will be a lot of food and supplement items talked about on the show today. What hasn’t come up as much with you is that you are well studied in strength and conditioning. You are a specialist in that area, you have degrees in that area as well. I trust those will come in handy for portions of our conversation today. Tell our audience a little bit more about your background and your work in that arena.

Krista: Technically you would call me a physiologist. There’s different types of physiologists that have specializations, whether it’s in nutrition, strength and conditioning, environment, there’s even aerospace physiologists. When I started into the field, I started with the Olympic Committee actually as a strength and conditioning intern. Then when they start to find out that you’ve got a little bit more to give, they started to pull me across to be more multi-functional for them. That’s where, at that time, physiologists not only did strength and conditioning to help integrate it with training, but they also did nutrition components. So although my career has been used for a wide variety of things, including helping athletes to help optimize recovery through nutrition, I’ve also done it through things like working on mobility, sleep, training load, all kinds of avenues, not just nutrition. But I have been known for the nutrition side, because I like to do things a little bit differently. Back in the day it was like, “What is she doing?” I think that’s why nutrition typically is what resounds with everyone.

Andrew: Our nutrition episodes with you are definitely some of our more popular ones, so as always, thank you for your time and your expertise. Now Krista, in 2022 you made an appearance at our St. George Ambassador Camp. You gave a talk to our entire camp, and you also did some oneon-one consultations with athletes that were there. Dr. BJ Leeper, our staff physical therapist, was also there, and he loves talking about physiology and recovery. Did the two of you get a chance to talk shop at all while you were both in St. George?

Krista: No, we didn’t. St. George was a whirlwind. I was coming back from a trip with a team, got to come in for a few days, and it was like boom-boom-boom, person after person. Then I had to get back up and out of there, because I had to go take another trip with another team. But maybe sometime we’ll get a chance to chat.

Andrew: Well, I will have to wrangle both of you onto a podcast episode one of these days. BJ has been a great resource for us to learn about physiology, strength and conditioning, recovery, and I know he would love to chat with you about that. We’ll line that up in the future, but for today it’s me, you, and Elizabeth. Elizabeth, I asked you to join this talk as our staff professional triathlete, being literally at the pointiest end of the performance spectrum. I know that you leave no stone unturned when it comes to optimizing your recovery. Talk to us about your process – what you do, what you’ve looked at, and why and how you prioritize recovery so much in your own training?

Elizabeth: Yeah, thanks Andrew! I certainly do know the importance of allowing the body to make the adaptations necessary after training. The body really needs to rebuild after we break it down during hard training sessions. I’ll admit that this is something that I could still improve on. I still face a number of challenges to get in proper recovery from each session, but it’s something I’m very mindful about, especially over the last two years. I’ve found that I absolutely love training, but at one point I was really just under-recovering. I wanted to keep training, but I wasn’t really able to allow my body the opportunity to absorb that load that I was putting into it. It’s amazing how being mindful about recovery can really enhance your performance. It’s not always about working harder or doing more, it’s about allowing your body to really take on what you’ve put into it, then see that performance gain from the stress that we’ve put on, and the adaptation process that happens afterwards. In terms of recovery things, I know today we’re going to talk through a bunch. Just looking through the list I was like, “Yep, tried that, tried that, tried that.” So I definitely have a lot of personal experience there, in addition to some recommendations that I’ve given my coached athletes, or what they’ve tried, and their anecdotal experiences as well.

Andrew: I do want to be clear, there are so many different ways you can boost your recovery. There’s a lot of things you can do, both clinically, and with physical therapists and specialists. I tried to really focus on things that come across our feed as triathletes, whether it’s on your social media feed, commercials, or whatever, things you can go out and buy and try that promise to boost your recovery on top of a lot of the things we’re supposed to be doing. I have a big, topten-style list of potential recovery boosters, things that tell us they can boost our recovery, and I’m just going to go item-by-item down the list. Dr. Austin we’ll hear your expert analysis on each one, and Elizabeth, you’ll provide us with any real-world commentary you have from trying these things out from your own day-to-day training. So let’s go through our list. Recovery Booster #1 that I want to talk about today is CBD. CBD is packaged in a few different types of products that promise to aid our recovery. Dr. Austin, does CBD actually spark recovery in triathletes?

Krista: Technically, for those that struggle with sleep or anxiety, or have pain-related issues, you can say that CBD – which does in fact have THC in it, and remember that is a banned substance – does in fact help improve those aspects. We can’t deny the research literature that those factors improve with the use of a CBD that contains THC. What’s tough about this product in particular is that sometimes, because of the regulations here in the US, we don’t always know if we’re getting a quality product. We do all know how important sleep is, and decreasing stress, especially if it’s related to anxiety. So it has some potential. There are more controlled studies that are needed, but if you work with the right person to evaluate it, you can properly understand if CBD is something that you need to take into consideration. Before you ever really walk down that CBD road, you have to sit back as an athlete and say, “What have all I tried to do in order to alleviate the sleep issues I’m having, the anxiety or pain?” But if nothing else is working, it may be a viable option. There’s a number of potential natural compounds that exist –they require some further validation, so that they can come on to the market at that FDA medication levels – and they also can help with areas like sleep and mental health disorders. Oftentimes athletes say, “CBD, that must be doping.” But take a step back actually, and realize that it may just be a natural compound that you have to have a physician properly oversee in order to be able to use it, if you’re competing at a level where they have the potential to test you. But we can’t deny that there is some viability there, we just have to assess it properly. It is out there on the market, it does work. The research is sufficient enough on CBD, that contains that contains the active compound THC, to actually work for things like sleep and anxiety. So it’s got viability if you’re having sleep issues and we can’t figure out why you’re having them.

Elizabeth: I’m really glad that you brought up THC, and how some of the CBD products will contain those, or others will publish, “This is THC-free.” It’s really important to know if that’s an ingredient in that, and also understand your incompetition, and outof-competition compliance with the anti-doping regulations. For a while I was coaching an athlete that was coming back after a number of cancer treatments, so we had worked together and filed a Therapeutic Use Exemption to have a CBD product that had the THC in it, so that she could sleep because of the pain from all of the cancer treatments. Now I’ve tried some CBD products that were THC-free, and found no benefit there. That’s one of the things that I can point back to the literature. For the athlete that was using the product that contained the THC, that was a very helpful thing for her. She had a lot of trouble sleeping without it. But without that THC, I haven’t personally found a benefit to it. Some reputable companies will post their batch testing results on the website for public view, and offer that reassurance that the product is permissible for athletes to use to stay in anti-doping compliance. Some athletes will use that. It’s THC-free, they’re batch tested. They say it works for them, but maybe it’s just a placebo effect. I haven’t found anything that, without that THC, would be a beneficial thing for me. But again, if it’s making them feel better or feeling like they’re recovered, there’s a mental aspect to that too.

Andrew: Dr. Austin, is there a specific form of CBD product that is more viable and more effective? Or is just if it has CBD in it and it’s a reputable brand, it’s fair game to try? What’s your recommendation for our listeners on what to put into practice?

Elizabeth: Like Elizabeth mentioned, when it comes down to these CBD products, I think looking at the brands who put copies of their actual testing for quality control up and available is really important. I haven’t had a ton of athletes have success with CBD in and of itself, unless it has the THC. Even people that just have chronic pain, typically they’re using a product that has the THC in it, that’s what’s allowing them to actually decrease the pain, and that’s where the research is focused around. So at least start with a company that’s going to put out their content analyses, whether it’s from NSF or Banned Substance Control Group, however it is. They should put it out there for you, so that you can at least know that it’s been tested for some type of quality assurance.

Andrew: Yeah, very helpful context. Recovery Booster #2, we’re going to talk about ketone esters. Now, our listeners have certainly heard the TriDot team profess our love for deltaG ketone drinks. Dr. Austin, what do ketones do specifically to enhance our recovery? I remember you were on the show with us one time, and you actually said your number one reason for having athletes you work with incorporate ketones into their routine is the benefit to recovery. What it is that ketones do for us, and how do we use these in our recovery regimen?

Krista: Essentially what they’ve shown with the ketones is that they go across the blood-brain barrier, and they can dampen what they call the stress response. A lot of times we measure this by what’s called catecholamines – epinephrine, norepinephrine – and they don’t stay as high afterwards. What they found is that athletes were actually able to tolerate high training loads that much better. Some athletes will do a period of what’s called “overreaching”, where we intentionally push them to their limits, and try to ask them to hold it for like, a week to ten days. When they gave them ketone esters during that time, they were actually able to do it a whole lot better. But if you think about, “Gosh, should I start taking them every day so I can push my body that hard?” The answer actually is no. We want you to naturally be controlling your central nervous system after hard sessions. But when you have periods of time where you can intentionally say, “I need to recover better and faster,” you might take a look at ketone esters as a way to do that, because of its impact on the central nervous system. At the same time you also have to use caution, because they do handle that session that much better, so people think, “Gosh, I feel great, maybe I should just come back into training that much faster.” That’s where we would actually be making a mistake. We want you to recover better, but it doesn’t mean that you should go out there hammering away just because you can. You could end up doing the same thing and just leading yourself to overtraining. If you think it’s not possible, I will tell you we had a historical group that they actually were bringing through the 1996 Olympics. The physiologist at the time didn’t understand hypoxic training very well, and the need to recover from it. Despite the talent of this group, they actually got roasted and toasted because they just could walk away from it thinking, “We’re cool, we can come back and do more.” So always be judicious with it, and make sure that even if you’ve enhanced recovery so that you can perform better and faster, that you take the time to truly recover when you do these things.

Andrew: Absolutely. We love our friends at deltaG. They are very good about educating athletes and have come on our show several times. Actually, at the time we’re recording this, next week I’m recording some content for our YouTube show with Brian from deltaG, where we’re going to talk about leveraging deltaG ketone esters properly for recovery. But it’s interesting to hear you talk about how it can help you recover so much better, it can help you push harder in your sessions so much better, that you need to be judicial with using it, and not over-using it, and not over-taxing your body because you’re using it. It’s fun to use it for a session, to pop a bottle of deltaG Performance or deltaG Tactical and see how much stronger you can perform in a session. That’s fun to do a couple times, and it’s great on race day. But where I find myself using it even more than that is using their Coffee Booster, in my coffee in the morning, especially now that I have a newborn and need a little boost to my mental acuity throughout the day to work and host podcasts. I know the team at deltaG also recommends pouring a teaspoon of the Coffee Booster in your post-workout recovery smoothie. I find myself doing those two things, just a teaspoon here and a teaspoon there, in the coffee and recovery drink, more so than I do fueling sessions with it. Elizabeth, I remember we were in Waco for Ironman Waco the year I was racing, and the day before the race you had something like a 5½ or 6hour indoor trainer session. You had your UCAN lined up, your hydration plan lined up, bottle after bottle on the table, and you had a couple bottles of deltaG Performance next to you and you were using it. Do you also use their drinks for recovery as well?

Elizabeth: Not as much in terms of adding a little bit in for frequent recovery of sessions, but I will say that on the sessions that I have used it, such as a race rehearsal, I have found that the recovery from those sessions has been so much easier, and I felt so much better the days after than I would if I hadn’t used it. Two days ago I did a race simulation workout, and I used the deltaG. I felt fantastic during the session and I felt fantastic the day after, but my coach was still diligent like, “No, you pushed hard yesterday, so today is still a recovery day. Even if you’re feeling great, you’re going to do a nice easy swim, a little spin-out. It’s still a recovery day, even if you don’t necessarily feel as taxed from that session. Looking at your power data and your heart rate, you pushed hard, so you still need to recover.” So everything that Dr. Austin was just saying in terms of, yes there’s great benefit not only in the performance boost you can get and recovery from it afterwards, but you do need to also be diligent and understand what you still put your body through in that case.

Andrew: Yeah, for my athletes listening who use TriDot Training, the beauty of TriDot training is, on a hard session where you use a little bit of the ketone ester to help you recover, TriDot doesn’t know that you used ketone ester, so we’re not going to have you go any harder the next day anyway. You’ve just got to follow your TriDot training plan, and you’re not going to push too hard anyway. I’m going to move us along to Recovery Booster #3, tart cherry and beet supplements. Both are very red, both are very potent when in drink form, and very small in pill form. Granted, I’ve only tried both of these once or twice, I have not extensively used them to see if I noticed much of a difference. But for me, both of these didn’t seem to make too much of a difference when I tried some samples. Dr. Austin, can either of these more natural, tart cherry or beet root supplement items, help in recovery?

Krista: You know, they can if you choose to use them at times when the body probably really has a good bit of inflammation. Or maybe you’re someone who struggles with sleep, and it has the ability to then help you improve your sleep by a certain pathway. Always the question comes, “How much pain are you really in, how much inflammation are you really in on a day-to-day basis?” Hopefully that’s not the case day-to-day. Then of course, if you can’t sleep, why can you not sleep? Overall, you take a look at tart cherry juice, it’s a high-glycemic carb. So if you take it before bed, it’s going to elevate blood glucose, and you’re going to get an insulin response that helps induce your sleep. It may also help alter what we call a serotonergic pathway that can kind of get backed up, because you are endurance athletes. So different compounds within the tart cherry may actually be helping that pathway, and it’s why it helps you get to sleep. But overall the research has shown, if you’ve got high levels of inflammation, it’s going to lessen pain, it’s going to help you get a good strength response because you get your range of motion back a little bit faster because the inflammation is down. But oftentimes my concern with these studies is that they’re not conducted very realistically. The way they apply a load, and the extent to which they sometimes put muscle damage into someone, don’t always mimic what triathletes do. So what I always recommend is that if you’re looking for something to help you sleep, or looking for something to help you recover from these really hard training days, ask yourself, “Is this what I really need? Or do I really need just some real food? Am I just sore and inflamed because I’m not fueling my body properly?” That’s often the case with athletes, especially if they’re training heavily while trying to lose weight. Factors like that have to be taken into consideration. Same thing with beet root supplements, they have been shown to help with sleep and to possibly reduce inflammation just like tart cherry, but the question is why might beet root help? I’ve had people who drink beet root juice as part of their nighttime routine. Again, you’re going to get a little bit of a glycemic response, but it does have nitrate in it, and we think in these individuals it may be altering their blood pressure response to allow them to decompress a little bit better, and with improved circulation they go to sleep better. A lot of thoughts around that, but it’s hard to really confirm it, especially in athletes. A lot of those studies on beet root are done in the everyday person, especially ones who maybe have an actual blood pressure issue. So lots of questions on these two, and why it is working, and typically it’s working to help people sleep. So don’t rule it out, but you can’t rule it all the way in, either.

Andrew: Interesting. So it’s not so much that it’s helping our body recover, helping our muscles directly recover, it’s just lessening inflammation, potentially helping us sleep, and thus indirectly could help the right athlete recover a little bit faster.

Krista: Yeah, and the question is, is it any better than carbohydrate itself? If I went and said, “I’m going to use the high-glycemic response. I’ll have some of these Sweet Tart jelly beans before bed, that have just as much carbohydrate as the tart cherries.” We might find that Andrew decides to choose the jelly beans over the tart cherry. He goes, “Krista, it works great to reduce inflammation and improves sleep!”

Andrew: Let’s go! Gimme the real carbs all day, every day! Now Elizabeth, is this something that you’ve tried, have you played with either of these?

Elizabeth: I’ve actually played with both of them, yes. Because sleep has always been a little bit of a struggle for me, as has been internal inflammation.

Andrew: Ditto. Same, girl, same. I just don’t sleep, that’s my strategy.

Elizabeth: See, not good strategy! We need that sleep! So I was really looking for something that was going to help me sleep better. I remember in particular there was a spring semester while I was still teaching, and with state testing and the end of the year, the stress level was super high, and I was trying to figure out, “How can I decompress, how I can I sleep a little bit better?” Because I was to the point of not being able to train, because I didn’t have enough sleep. So I looked at both tart cherry and beet root supplements. I like both of them, I think they both taste great. I enjoy having them. It’s one of those things where I don’t know if it was more of a placebo effect, or if it really did help with that glycemic response and allow me to just relax a little bit better and sleep. It worked in that season that I needed it to. It’s not something that I continue to do now, but I would say there was a good four months where I was either doing tart cherry or beet root supplements to help sleep, and it was effective for me.

Andrew: Okay, great stuff. Recovery Booster #4, these are two different things but I’m grouping them together anyway: branched-chain amino acids and omega-3's. I grouped these together because I remember back when I graduated college, and I became an adult trying to stay in shape in the real world, and tons of pre and post-workout products promoted their inclusion of both of these. What are they, what do they do, and do they boost recovery? Dr. Austin?

Krista: We’ll kick off with BCAA’s. I will tell you that for the most part, if you’ve got an amino-rich nutrition plan, typically it’s not going to help you out all that much, just because of how we store amino acids in the body. But for people that are in a state of muscle breakdown – so maybe that’s when they’re going through really high periods of training where they just can’t seem to compensate quite enough through nutrition, or they’re in energy restriction because they are trying to lose weight and might not have all the amino acids available, or maybe they have a nutrition plan they follow that for some reason they can’t hit all of the amino acids like they need to – so for key points in time, I would definitely incorporate them so that we have the amino acids we need for muscle repair. But the question is, can you get the job done with real food and real nutrition? If not, then how do we offer BCAA’s as a means to help achieve that? I do know, as people age, sometimes we’re trying to create an anabolic effect in the body, and we’ll tend to increase protein intake and amino acid availability just because they don’t have the hormones in the body that would naturally help them build muscle like they typically would. Sometimes we look at it from that perspective too, if they are in a stage of life where BCAA’s would be of benefit.

Elizabeth: I’m really glad that you brought up that last part. As we were at Endurance Exchange this year, there was a fantastic talk about women going through menopause and some of the different changes in their body. One of the recommendations that they had was to look at your protein intake, and think about if you are able to get all of these amino acids from your nutrition plan, or if this is something that you really need to start supplementing at this point in your life. I think another misconception among athletes with BCAA’s is that they think of it as a protein replacement, and they’re not complete proteins. These are intended to help optimize the benefits of that, but it’s not going to replace having chicken or your protein shake. They’re great to help along those lines, but nutrition from real food is still going to be key, and using this as an additional supplement as needed can be great.

Andrew: Yeah, while we’re talking about protein, longtime listeners of the podcast will have heard me talk about Cheez-Its before. Quest, the company that does protein cookies and protein chips, just released a protein cheesy cracker. So that has replaced Cheez-Its in my pantry. Honestly, it’s in my bedroom as my midnight snack. When I’m up at 3:00 a.m. feeding the baby and I’m a little hungry, I will have some protein Cheez-Its at 3:00 in the morning. Krista, I can’t read by your face if you’re pleased with this, or if that is not a product I should be using. That is a conversation we can have after the show. Let’s move on to omega-3's and talk about their role in potentially helping us recover.

Krista: Yeah, omega-3's have been known to possibly help reduce pain and inflammation. However, the research isn’t always realistic. I always come back to this. There’s a lot of ways to reduce pain and inflammation from significant muscle damage. The question is, does omega-3's or a supplement really fit that bill for you, or can you use something just nutritionally? I think if we have a diet that is rich in omega-3's –sometimes that’s always the question with people, “Do you have enough omega-3's in your day-to-day nutrition?” – then typically a supplement is not needed. People are always surprised when I have these dinners, in the meal plans I give to them, and they’re like, “Twice a week you have these omega-3-rich fish dinner options, we’re having all this fish and then some vegetables.” The whole goal is to give them the omega-3's they really need in solid doses. I put in a lot of avocados, walnuts, things of that nature to help boost omega-3's in the diet, and try to hold back on the omega-6 side of the coin. So I think there’s a lot we can do with food here. But if you’re totally opposed to it – one of my clients right now, she says, “I’m not willing to eat any of these things” – we might go for a supplement. It comes down to what you are able to do.

Andrew: Interesting. So we do need omega-3's in our system to help our body recover, but most people, unless you have a dietary restriction, can primarily get it through real foods. Elizabeth, it sounds like, I would guess very strongly, I would put money on the fact that you probably get this through your day-to-day nutrition, is that correct?

Elizabeth: Yes, though I do supplement this as well. A lot of this has to do with my genetic history, and just super-high cholesterol. To be honest, my cholesterol is scary high, through the roof. I love walnuts, I love avocados, and I love eating fish, so getting omega-3's through a day-to-day diet is easy and important, but I’m also supplementing with an omega-3 supplement to aid in the cholesterol aspect as well.

Andrew: Okay, Recovery Booster #5, let’s talk about recovery balms. There are lots of brands that have a lotion or balm that you rub on your aching muscles, and they promise relief. Doing a little homework, the active ingredient in many of these is menthol and/or methyl salicylate. Can these balms enhance our recovery, or are they just some form of temporary relief or placebo effect?

Krista: There’s very little research to actually support that they’re going to enhance recovery. But might they leave you feeling good right away in a specific area that maybe is tender or what-have-you? Yes. Do you ever stop athletes from using them? The answer is no. I put these in the same bucket as why you might go for a massage. When you go for a massage, everything gets loosened up. A lot of range of motion, a lot of shifting of blood flow and metabolic aspects, so you will get a good acute effect. But long-term, is the menthol helping you recover better? I would say no. I’ve actually worked in some sports where they use it to try to dampen the pain, and they say, “This is just going to help me get through it.” If you think about that, it’s probably not going to help recovery, it may just allow them to keep going until they can get home and truly recover. It’s always interesting being in a sport where they might use this to manipulate pain while they’re out in competition. I think you’ve got to look at the recovery tools and say, “Do I want something that has lasting effects, or do I need something with acute effects?” There’s no right or wrong answer. So I say if it feels good in the moment, Icy Hot or whatever it is, or if you want to do some eucalyptus oils or peppermint oils because it does psychologically help, then I say go ahead with it.

Andrew: Yeah, Shaquille O’Neal would definitely tell me to use Icy Hot in one of the 46 commercials he’s in on a daily basis on my television. Elizabeth, do you listen to Shaq? Is this something that you use in your recovery program?

Elizabeth: The smell of menthol reminds me of our high school soccer team. Talk about people using it for pain manipulation, that would be exactly what our team would use it for. Like somebody took a major slide tackle, or our keeper took a hit as she’s making a save, and it would be like, “Grab the Icy Hot!” They would smear it on, and it would almost be a distraction for them, they can’t feel the pain because all we have is this tingling sensation from the Icy Hot. But yeah, I personally don’t know that there’s any long-term recovery benefits for it, but in terms of people using it to manipulate pain, or something that feels good and helps them get to a point where they can recover later, I was smiling the whole time Dr. Austin was saying that. I’m like, “Oh my gosh, this is like high school soccer all over.”

Andrew: Recovery Booster #6, Epsom salt baths. Listen, I was totally unaware this was a thing until Clash Daytona 2022. In the goody bag that all the athletes received, there was a generous portion of Epsom bath salts, and I was very confused as to why this was in the goody bag. The athletes around me, Coach Joanna Nami in particular, very quickly proclaimed to me the wonders of an Epsom salt bath. Does this just set the tone for a nice bath, or is there a deeper recovery benefit to using these? Krista?

Krista: The theory behind the Epsom salt bath is that they have magnesium and sulfate that gets absorbed into the muscle when you take the bath, and they say this helps with muscle relaxation. However, the scientific evidence behind it is lacking. When my athletes develop out their recovery protocol, I ask the question, “How do you feel after it? How did the recovery maybe occur for you?” I think there’s more of a placebo there. I don’t have a ton of athletes who use them, now that we have some other devices on the market to help with actual muscle recovery, that are a little efficacious from a scientific point of view. But I will tell you the theory behind it is that the magnesium and sulfate is absorbed into the muscle and helps with relaxation.

Elizabeth: Yeah, I have a couple of coached athletes that absolutely swear by the Epsom salt bath. Kind of the same thing, while the salt may not be providing the recovery that they’re necessarily crediting it with, I will say that there’s something about the warm water, sitting down, relaxing. I personally think that’s where they’re getting the recovery benefit. They’re actually allowing themselves to relax after the workout.

Andrew: To that point, Elizabeth, I think in our gogo-go, achieve/hustle society, a lot of people struggle with that. They struggle to slow down the pace of their day, the pace of their life. A lot of triathletes in particular, we’re often achievers and gogetters. We’re often slaves to our training, and we’re that way about a lot of things in our lives. So yeah, if having that bag of Epsom salts is what prompts you to take 30 minutes and relax, then in that case it is doing something to help you recover. Great perspective there, Elizabeth, I enjoyed that – not enough to take a bath, I’m more of a shower guy – but for people who that’s their jam, that sounds great. As I move us to Recovery Booster #7, we’re going to stick with the bath theme here, and talk about ice baths. I’ve seen many a social media influencer dipping themselves into an ice barrel, all while trying to convince me that I need to buy one and join the chilly water recovery party. I’ve actually heard this one both ways. I’ve heard smart-sounding people saying that cold/hot back-and-forth protocols can genuinely help recovery, and I’ve heard some smart-sounding people say that they don’t really do a whole lot. Dr. Austin, help us out here.

Krista: This all comes back to what really helps you decrease inflammation. They have shown that a lot of things decrease inflammation. The question is what is going to help you get back to the point where you’re going to restore your range of motion at the end of the day. I will tell you, I am a big fan of putting athletes into ice baths and then putting them into compression systems like the Hyperice or Normatec. It really seems to help with restoring range of motion and the feeling they have in the joint. Always it’s about restoring range of motion and putting enough control behind it, to make sure you don’t overtrain in some way. Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of things work like this very well.

Andrew: Elizabeth, I do want to forewarn you. Now that our YouTube show is off and running – we have nine episodes of our YouTube show out there in the YouTube sphere. By the time this podcast releases, Episode 10 will be about to come out. Sometimes people ask, “Why are you guys doing a YouTube show on the side of the podcast?” It’s for things like this. I want to get our staff coaches and regulars into an ice bath, an ice barrel of some sort, and see who can last the longest in the ice bath. Elizabeth, you will absolutely have to be somebody who participates in that challenge when we do that on the show. Is this is something you’ve ever tried, Elizabeth? Have you ever tried any extreme cold to extreme hot, back-and-forth stuff to help you recover?

Elizabeth: I tell you what, I’m always game for a competition, so you can count me in for that YouTube segment. But I am not going to put any bets on myself for being able to outlast anybody else, because I am a wimp for the cold. Yes, I’ve done cryotherapy, I’ve done ice baths, I’ve done the cold-then-compression. I’ve done a lot of those things, and I think there’s some great benefit in terms of reducing inflammation. I just don’t like the cold. So for me, I’m probably going to pick an alternative, because I really hate being cold. Yeah I think there’s benefits, but for me, it gives me anxiety thinking about getting into the cold water, so will choose an alternative.

Andrew: Okay, good to know. For some reason I can see Matt Bach, our Director of Marketing, winning that challenge, but we’ll find out when we do that on the YouTube show. Recovery Booster #8 is massage and soft tissue tools. We do have podcast episodes with Dr. BJ Leeper telling us all about how to leverage massage and compression tools into our recovery routines. Spoiler alert, they can definitely boost recovery. But even with previous episodes about this, I couldn’t do a list of recovery boosters without mentioning these kinds of tools. Dr. Austin, how do you like to see athletes leveraging massage and soft-tissue tools?

Krista: First and foremost, I go back to does it restore range of motion, and also the psychological side? When we look at massage and soft-tissue tools, I tend to put them in two different classifications. The soft-tissue tools themselves will really help you work on areas where the connective tissue needs it. I’ve got my foam roller in here, my golf ball, and my tennis ball, all because of doing some soft-tissue work on a day-to-day basis. When it comes down to massage, I think it’s one of those things where you do get in there and break up a lot of connective tissue, but you can also undo that nice massage in that regard very quickly if you’re not careful about it. But it’s a nice treat, and it help the psychological aspect, which is even more important. . In terms of what happens to the soft tissue after I’ve just ripped it back up after going back and workout out again, I don’t know that it lasts. But if you do it consistently, I think there’s some definite benefits to that area if you’ve got that kind of musculature that needs it.

Andrew: Recovery Booster #9, we’ve already on this list talked about a few things that can help us sleep a little better, but I want to talk about sleep in general as a recovery booster. I love to sleep. I don’t get to do it as much these days as I would like to, but we hear how important it is to recovery. In fact we do have a full-on sleep episode planned for later this year, so that is coming. But for the purposes of this conversation, how does sleep, particularly the supplements that promise to help us sleep, play a role in our recovery?

Krista: You have to think of sleep as your body’s opportunity to reset its central nervous system. Because you’re not sitting there stimulating it over and over again with training or people asking for your time, or kids crying and all that good stuff. That’s where it seems kind of tough, becoming a parent and the crying starts and the whole nine yards. At the end of the day, it’s your greatest support. So anything that impairs it, you’ve got to turn around and say, “Okay, this is an area I have to address.” There’s a wide range of methods that can be used to improve sleep. A real common one is just the temperature of the room, because maybe your body is that elevated in terms of core temperature throughout the day because of the extensive training you undergo. Another is biochemical aids. There are people that do not naturally produce enough melatonin themselves to get the pineal functioning, so we’ll use a small dose of melatonin, about half a milligram, later in the afternoon or early evening, just to jump-start their pineal gland’s production of melatonin. Anything that has the potential to help us sleep better, we do. That’s one of the thoughts behind the ketone esters that we talked about, is that they’re reducing that stress response called the catecholamines and their actions, and actually allowing you to sleep better when you’re coming off something really stressful. There’s always compression equipment, that people say helps muscularly with blood flow and what-have-you. Then of course there’s good old food. Food can always help us sleep better, especially when we’re training hard. I can’t tell you how many athletes have talked to me about getting up hungry and going into the kitchen and having to get a midnight snack when they’re training really hard, and I’m like, “Oh, we’re not doing something right then in our recovery, if we’re having to do that.” Because when we’re waking up, we’re breaking up the natural sleep cycle and disrupting the circadian rhythms in the body. So we want to address it from that fueling standpoint, or even the training load side. If it’s maybe you can’t even get enough food in your body to accommodate the training load, then we’ve got to take a good look at it, as to why can we not get enough sleep.

Elizabeth: One of the things that I found super interesting, I was listening to an interview earlier this year with Gustav Iden and Christian Blummenfelt, and they talked about how sleep was one of their greatest recovery weapons. They said that they will even forego things like doing an ice bath or going out and getting a massage, because sometimes after a session, all they want to do is go home and take a nap, because they’re like, “We know that sleep is the best recovery.” Yeah, we’re not necessarily doing all of the fancy recovery things, because we know if we go home, we take a nap and rest, we’re going to be better recovered than if we were running around trying to get in some of these other recovery aspects.

Andrew: I think as average triathletes, it’s so much sexier to pop off a serving of tart cherry juice, or to try a pill, or to buy something that you hook up to your body that relaxes you. All those things are just way sexier than just going to sleep. So to hear two of the top pros in the business today just say, “Forget all that, just go to sleep,” that is just a powerful endorsement.

Elizabeth: Yeah, nobody’s Instagramming about, “Hey, I just had a great 30minute nap!” They’re like, “Look at my tart cherry juice!”

Andrew: Nobody cheers for you for your afternoon nap. They’re like, “Stop being lazy, wake up!” Okay, Recovery Booster #10, we’ve got two more left here on the list. Dr. Austin, this is one that’s on the list because you wanted it to be on the list, and I can see why, the further we got into this conversation. You prompted me to put this on the show today, because athletes often overlook food. Day-to-day food, what you’re eating, we overlook food as a way to boost our recovery. So talk to us about how crucial a role food can play in recovery.

Krista: Yeah, so you’re repleting the muscle itself, in getting the blood flow going, the amino acid repair, the carbohydrate restored. This is especially important for endurance athletes. I can’t tell you how many times I showed up to a training session, and no one has what they’re supposed to after a prolonged one, in order to fuel their body. They’re not meeting the minimum requirements, and yet they’ve got to go train later that day, or they’re having a session that is uniquely hard. I’m like, “What are you doing?” But don’t worry, they brought the foam roller, they’ve got a mat, they’ve got the stretch cord, the whole nine yards, and they’re like, “Yeah, I’m ready to recover afterwards,” and they’re lying there. Heaven forbid they have a sandwich while they’re doing it, right? It’s one of those kickers. One of the things we tried when I was with the Olympic Committee was to help ensure that when our athletes developed their recovery protocol, they always had food with them. It was a critical component of it, and if you actually went into the recovery center there, what you would find was, in under an hour you could sit there having a recovery snack, doing your ice bath component, AND doing a compression treatment to help facilitate recovery. So we tried to always make sure the nutrition was available, whether it was a protein/carbohydrate shake, or a healthy, calorie-dense cookie or bar of some sort. We made sure it had enough protein and carbohydrate to help fill the immediate need coming off of training. It’s always interesting to me, when everyone buys all their tools and they’re like, “Yeah, I don’t do nutrition.”

Andrew: Yeah, I started this episode with all the cute things you can buy and try, and I ended with sleep and food. I probably should have started with sleep and food, and then moved on to all the cutesy little things you can try and buy. Our last one today is along those same lines as well. Recovery Booster #11 is hydrating properly. My good friends at Precision Fuel & Hydration have a blog on their website that talks about using hydration as means to recover. They would be mad at me forever if I did not include this on this list, because they believe so much in hydrating properly as a means of recovery. Elizabeth, Dr. Austin, I know you agree with this. Dr. Austin, what do you say to your athletes about hydrating your way to a better recovery?

Krista: I thought the joke at TriDot, and probably with everyone else that knows me, is “Can she talk an episode without talking about hydration?” So one hundred percent, it’s probably the greatest and most simplistic recovery booster, outside of nutrition itself, that you can use. It’s going to help you not only cognitively recover, but it’s going to help with blood flow to the muscles, to the brain, removal of waste, then just delivery of the nutrition you need to help that muscle get recovered again. A lot of it has to do with blood flow. If you’re super dehydrated, your kidneys are working harder for everything. You’re just forcing your body to try and push things along, and you’re not getting the job done in recovery. So first and foremost, I make sure my athletes start to deliver their hydration as they begin their recovery process. Typically we’ll start with an electrolyte beverage as they also begin to consume some carbohydrate and protein, and I’ll try to have them get 8 to 12 ounces down of actual electrolytes prior to even engaging with the food,” and typically they can pretty easily. You’re going to do your body a world of good, because all of a sudden you’re helping the blood flow restore to the gastrointestinal system, and then you can start actually pushing those nutrients out. Otherwise you may have a little bit of an issue getting them to the muscle.

Cool down theme: Great set everyone! Let’s cool down.

Vanessa Ronksley: Welcome to the cooldown everyone! I’m Vanessa, your Average Triathlete with Elite-Level Enthusiasm! Chad Rolfs is our TriDot coach who will be bringing us the Coach Cooldown Tip today. Chad works as a Senior Quality Engineer on the Photoshop team with Adobe, and focuses on customer digital painting and usability workflows. He has been married for 21 years, and lives in Shoreline, Washington, which is just north of Seattle, with his wife, two sons, and his adorable corgi named Cheeto. Chad was a Div I All American swimmer in college, and was recently inducted into the Washington State Swimming Hall of Fame. So congratulations on that, Chad, that is a massive accomplishment. On the triathlon side of things, he has completed multiple Olympic-distance and 70.3’s, including Worlds in 2021, and he is currently training for his second full-distance tri. Chad has been coaching with TriDot for over a year, and is a certified TriDot Pool School instructor. He loves coaching beginners and intermediates, and he works mainly with long-course athletes, all while specializing in swimming. Chad, I am so excited to have you on the cooldown!

Chad Rolfs: I am so excited too! I have to say, Vanessa, your elite-level enthusiasm is totally contagious.

Vanessa: Oh, I love it! This brings me back to a quote that I used to stick on my résumé when I was like, 18. It said, “Enthusiasm is like a ripple. It spreads.” I’ve really taken that to heart. I feel like it is contagious, so the happier and more excited I am, I’m just hoping it will make the world a happier, more excited place.

Chad: It does, it ripples out!

Vanessa: That’s great. So something that most people don’t know about you is that you have a third-degree black belt in Taekwondo. My niece just received her black belt a few weeks ago, and I can tell y’all out there who have not witnessed the process, that not only getting the black belt, but the test itself, it is mind-blowing. What is involved in that entire process is slight terrifying. So I can tell you, Chad, you’re incredible for the perseverance and dedication that you’ve invested in this endeavor in your life.

Chad: Thanks. Yeah, I don’t practice anymore, but it was definitely a challenge, definitely a great way to cross-train. It helps focus balance, control, overall body awareness, and – I was thinking about this leading up to this – the five tenets of taekwondo definitely apply to the sport of triathlon. Those tenets are courtesy, integrity, perseverance, self-control, and indomitable spirit. Definitely applies to triathlon.

Vanessa: I love that! I just got shivers up my whole body! I love those five tenets, I’m going to have to write that down and keep it somewhere really special, that I see on the regular. That’s really cool. The amount of mental fortitude that it takes to get through all of that training and testing is second to none. I feel like the tip you’re going to share with us today is something that you have probably practiced many times over.

Chad: And over. It’s something I’ve learned and relearned many times. I have a hunch that this tip may be a strength for you, Vanessa. I think for most of us, when we’re riding front and center on the struggle bus, we tend to pull inside ourselves, and get quiet, and we kind of suffer alone. So my mental tip today is to not do that, but instead focus on someone else and engage. A great example of that, of applying that, is the Saturday group rides that I’ve participated in. Everybody’s grinding, doing the hard work, taking turns in the hurt locker, and it makes it so much easier when there’s a conversation going, and encouragement is flying. Sometimes I’ll throw in a dad joke, and it just helps change the mind-shift. Everybody’s suffering, then you get something out of left field like a dad joke, and it changes the course of your mind. Then some people are trying to figure out what the answer is to the dad joke before it comes up, and it’s awesome. So whether you’re in a live race too, when you’re passing someone or whether they’re passing you, you can give them a shout-out and it’s like, “Oh my gosh, I love your kit!” And it just jumps you out of the struggle of being in that suffering.

Vanessa: Yeah, I think that’s a really huge thing to be cognizant of, because if you’re so inside your own thoughts and you're in a dark place, you’re focusing on that dark thing. But as soon as you avert your attention and energy to something that’s outside of you, it’s like this mental switch. In your brain, there’s something happening there where you’re no longer focusing on what’s so difficult in that exact moment. I can tell you, since living over in Australia, I miss those Zwift rides like nobody’s business. I would be doing my 2x18’s, and I would be dying, but like you said, everyone is suffering together, and you know that people are cheering you on, and it’s just so uplifting. There’s not many things that I am forward about moving back to North America, but the Zwift rides is probably one of the things at the top of the list.

Chad: Yeah! I can’t wait until you’re back in there. Yeah, you put something out, and you never know what’s going to come back. Often you get a good resonance out of what you throw out there.

Outro: Thanks for joining us. Make sure to subscribe and share the TriDot podcast with your triathlon crew. For more great tri content and community, connect with us on Facebook, YouTube, and Instagram. Ready to optimize your training? Head to TriDot.com and start your free trial today! TriDot – the obvious and automatic choice for triathlon training.

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