Intro: This is the TriDot podcast. TriDot uses your training data and genetic profile, combined with predictive analytics and artificial intelligence to optimize your training, giving you better results in less time with fewer injuries. Our podcast is here to educate, inspire, and entertain. We’ll talk all things triathlon with expert coaches and special guests. Join the conversation and let’s improve together.

Andrew Harley: Welcome to the TriDot Podcast! We’ve learned quite a bit about general injury prevention and recovery throughout our episodes, so we are going to start getting more specific with different types of recovery products and modalities. Modalities is a word I now know from hosting this podcast, thank you BJ Leeper! Today we are talking specifically about how to make use of the bits and bobs on the market that help us stretch, roll, and massage our muscles. Joining us for this conversation is Craig DiGiovanni. Craig is one of the original founders of Medi-Dyne Health Care products, and is currently Senior Vice President of Sales and Marketing for the company. Craig has been with Medi-Dyne for over 24 years and is an avid runner, biker, and swimmer himself. He benefits first-hand from the company’s passion for keeping athletes moving. Craig has run five marathons, one half-Ironman, and many half marathons and other shorter races. Craig, thanks for coming back on the show!

Craig DiGiovanni: Hey, thanks for having me back!

Andrew: Also joining us for this is Dr. BJ Leeper. BJ graduated from the University of Iowa Carver College of Medicine with a Doctorate in Physical Therapy and Rehabilitation Science. He is a Board Certified Orthopaedic Specialist, a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist, and a USA Triathlon Level I Coach. He specializes in comprehensive movement testing is an avid triathlete himself with over 50 tris under his belt. BJ now serves full-time as TriDot’s Director of Performance Science. BJ, how’s it going today?

BJ Leeper: It’s great, Andrew! Thanks for having me, I’m excited to chat massage tools with you guys.

Andrew: I bet you are! I am Andrew the Average Triathlete, Voice of the People and Captain of the Middle of the Pack. As always we'll approach the show like any other workout. We’ll roll through our warmup question, settle in for our main set conversation, and then wind things down with our cooldown.

We have the coolest opportunity lined up for December of this year, 2022, to end the season racing CLASH Daytona. The team from CLASH Endurance is giving TriDot Nation our own portion of the RV camping area. So basically you register for the race, you book a campsite, you get yourself there with an RV, and you hang out with other TriDotters all weekend long. We’ll be staying right on the shores of Lake Lloyd; that’s the lake INSIDE of Daytona International Speedway. You can bring your own RV, or you can rent one from one of the partner RV rental websites. I rented an RV for TriDot coach Jeff Raines and myself from RVshare.com, and the coolest thing is Jeff and I will show up on Thursday and our RV will be there waiting for us in our camping spot. No RV driving required. It will no doubt be an adventure, camping, hanging, racing, and cheering each other in Daytona. You can register for the race at CLASH-USA.com using the code TRIDOTDAYTONA for 10% off any and all of the races you’ll be doing. When you register, make sure you put down that you are with TriDot if you plan on camping with us. I plan on racing the sprint on Saturday and doing a relay for the middle distance on Sunday. I may even throw the Friday night Jingle Jog 5K in there as well, who knows? Either way, this is going to be a special weekend. So consider this to be your invitation to the TriDot party.

Warm up theme: Time to warm up! Let’s get moving.

Andrew: When it comes to travel, vacations, holidays, race-cations even, there are certain locations that everybody knows are fantastic and live up to the hype. No one has ever visited the beaches of Hawaii, the canals of Venice, or the mountain villages of the Alps, and walked away disappointed. But I’m curious today to hear about those underrated vacation spots. BJ, Craig, what was a destination you visited that really isn’t talked about a lot, that you think makes for a fantastic getaway or vacation? Craig, we’ll start with you.

Craig: You know, I’ve been fortunate to go a lot of different places, but certainly one of the most memorable was more of a destination vacation with a purpose. We actually took my family on a mission trip to Honduras. You wouldn’t think that was a place you’d go to get away, but I tell you what, it had the biggest impact on our family than anything else that we’ve ever done. We’ve been fortunate to go to some nice beaches and the mountains like you’ve talked about, but from just really getting a different perspective on life, really getting away, and even coming back energized, that was by far the most memorable trip we ever went on as a family. It was so memorable that we did it again. We did it twice, actually, as a family. I think there’s something special about that. Some people like to just go and lay around and do nothing, but when you go and meet some really unique people, see a different way of life, and get to appreciate your life that much more, it has a really lasting impact. It’s not just a week, it’s a vacation that carries on for almost a lifetime really.

Andrew: Yeah, a great way to see the world while you’re doing some good and giving back a little bit. Great answer there, Craig. Craig, you’re two-for-two on warmup questions on the podcast, because the last time you were on the show you talked about seeing Frank Sinatra live in person in concert. That’s a real tough answer to top when we’re talking about live concerts. BJ, following up on Craig’s answer there, what is this answer for you?

BJ: I agree with Craig. The family dynamic, that time you spend with people really makes the trip special. My answer for this is – it’s no secret to people around the Midwest and know this area – but the north shore of Lake Superior, up on the Minnesota side. When we lived in the Midwest we’d go up there every August, late August. It’d be the dog days of summer down where we were in Kansas City, but up in the Lake Superior area, it was like fast-forward a month and a half into fall. It was just some really special time with our family, and we’d go up there just south of Grand Marais, and Lake Superior is just majestic. That time up there is not often talked about as a hot vacation destination, but to our family it was really special. A lot of people in that area know that place. Not talked about a lot, but a really cool spot.

Andrew: We’ve had plenty of TriDotters do some of the 70.3s in the Great Lakes area – not necessarily Lake Superior specifically, but certainly 70.3 Michigan – some of those races have a reputation for being very beautiful. And yeah, BJ, when you’re making a bucket list of places to visit in the U.S. that’s not necessarily what comes to mind first. But to your point, you went with the family, and had a very special time there. My answer here, also a city that isn’t necessarily – and that’s kind of what we’re going for here, is things that don’t pop to mind immediately when you think of a vacation – but my wife and I did a trip, one of our favorite trips we’ve done of all the places we’ve been to in the world. We went to Columbus, Ohio, which on the surface does not scream – Craig, you’re making a great face like, “Really, Columbus?” So we have a television show that we watch called “Secrets of the Zoo”, where they take you behind the scenes of the inner workings of the Columbus, Ohio Zoo. In downtown Columbus they have their traditional zoo that you take the family to, but then about 90 minutes outside of town they also have a wilderness preserve with hundreds and hundreds of acres where the animals actually just roam the countryside in their enclosures. So we watched that TV show, my wife loves that TV show, so we’re like, “Hey, let’s get out of town for a long weekend and go to Columbus and check out both zoos!” We did the downtown zoo one day, and we did the wilderness preserve the following day. They put you in the back of trucks and drive you around the preserve, and you drive right up to the animals and feed the giraffes, and drive in the truck alongside the camels as they’re running next to the truck, just a really cool experience. But even besides that, downtown Columbus is just a gem. The main street walking through town has wonderful restaurants, shops, and coffee shops. They were great to us in the evening times. There is a German district in Columbus complete with a German restaurant that has live polka music, so we definitely partook in that one evening while we were there. Yeah, just a trip that we rave about. Morgan was almost a little embarrassed to tell friends when they were like, “Oh, you’re taking off work Friday and Monday, where are you going?” “I’m going to Columbus, Ohio!” It’s like, “What??” But we just had an absolute blast. Have either of you guys been to Columbus? Anybody?

Craig: Mm hmm.

BJ: No, can’t say I have.

Andrew: All right, me and Craig. Craig’s nodding with me, he’s tracking with me. Guys, we’re going to throw this question out to you like we always do. Make sure you are part of the I AM TriDot Facebook group. We put our warmup question out to the group every single Monday when the new episode comes out, so make sure you’re a part of the group and find the post asking you: of all the vacation destinations you have traveled to, what is an underrated one that you’d like to share?

Main set theme: On to the main set. Going in 3…2…1…

Andrew: We have been raving about 2Toms SportShield and BlisterShield that have been literally saving our skin while we train. Well Medi-Dyne, the folks behind the brilliant 2Toms lineup, also offers topnotch recovery and mobility training devices. Their ProStretch Addaday lineup of recovery tools has been trusted by physical therapists, trainers, athletes, and regular exercisers for over 25 years. So whether you’re searching for a ProStretch calf stretcher, foot stretcher, or Addaday foam rollers and massage balls, discover a better way to prevent and treat sore, stiff, and painful muscles, tendons, ligaments, and joints at medi-dyne.com. My ProStretch calf stretcher lives underneath my desk and basically gets used on a daily basis, and Addaday massage balls can be found laying around numerous rooms of my house, ready for action after any good workout. There are so many recovery and stretching tools you can add to your arsenal. Check out the ProStretch Addaday recovery product line at medi-dyne.com and use promo code TRIDOT to get 20% off your order.

Guys, let’s talk about it! BJ, let’s start here at the top with the big questions. Why is helping our muscles recover from sessions so important in the first place, and when in that process is it best to use massage recovery tools to prompt our recover along?

BJ: Yeah, those are definitely the big questions. There’s a lot there to unpack. The first question, like you said, is why do our muscles need to recover. I think that is the most straightforward to address first. Muscles obviously equal movement. So if our muscles aren’t happy, our movement’s not looking too hot. In sports performance we often talk about the best way to turn a muscle on, or engage it or strengthen it, but we don’t often talk about the best way to turn our muscles off. Because in essence they need rest, they need recovery. If we’re training for anything – weight training, training for triathlon, what have you – most of us understand that when we test our muscles, then they adapt. They recover, we get stronger, we get more resilient. I think most people understand that. But what most people don’t quite understand is when we get off on the wrong track with that, we actually start getting into an unrecovered or overstressed state. A lot of times somebody comes into the clinic and they’re struggling with this, and we always joke that the lights are on, but nobody’s home. The muscles might be working overtime when they don’t need to be, and it becomes a problem when rest doesn’t quite solve it. So the next question is, when in that process is it best to use these massage recovery tools? It’s worth spending a little bit of time here up front to create the lens that we’ll look through to view these massage tools and recovery products, to get into and lay the foundation for discussing this stress-recovery cycle. Normally we have a normal stress that’s invoked upon the muscle, then we have this recovery that needs to take place. Most of us have experience the DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) where a couple days after we’re a little sore, but we rest and it eventually goes away. That’s the natural cycle. But what’s interesting is when we get into this cycle where we’re not recovering quite how we should be, or we’re over-stressing the system, then we have this delayed soreness that’s beyond the normal expectation. Most people coming in the clinic to see me are in this state where it’s become painful, and they can’t solve it on their own with rest. We always joke with this stress-recovery cycle, “Well, are you over-stressed, or are you under-recovered?” And it’s this rhetorical question because the answer typically is, “Yes.” If I’m over-stressed, I’m probably under-recovered. If I’m under-recovered, I’m probably overstressed. The reality is you need to break that cycle, and I think the best way to start talking about how to address that – and using some of these products to address that – is defining what stress is and even what recovery is. Most of us think, “It’s training stress, it’s physical.” But the reality is your body doesn’t know the difference between different stresses. Stress is stress. It could be the stress of finishing a full Ironman, or it could be, “I’ve got four kids at home and a newborn and haven’t had a full night’s sleep in over a year.” That’s stress that your body responds to as well. So we have to consider the types of stress that can influence a system. Then also discussing recovery, when we talk about these products it’s like, “Is this product going to work for me?” Well, what does it mean for this product to work for you? What does it mean to recover and to be recovered? That’s something that needs a definition, because we don’t really have a pure metric for measuring recovery. We have some ways of objectively trying to measure it with resting heart rate or heart rate variability. Our smart watches now tell us if we’re recovered or not, and we start to rely on these. But at the same time, a lot of times recovery is based on feel, especially with how it affects our movement. Feel is obviously a very subjective thing, and there are a lot of variables that make up stress and that can influence it. So again when we talk about where do we implement a massage recovery tool or product, a lot of times it can be implemented at any point in that stress recovery cycle. Because if you use it and it’s not necessarily needed at the point where you’re under-recovered or you’re in that recovery state truly, you might be using it simply as a way to explore and feel the body and know how the body’s doing. It’s almost like an assessment tool. If I’m rolling out a muscle and it’s not really that sore, I’m probably doing okay. That muscle’s happy. But then it can become very much a recovery treatment. So you’re doing it at the state you need it in, and it actually becomes a treatment technique and a tool for improving the state of that muscle. So that’s a long-winded answer as far as when do you need that recovery tool. It really can go at any point in that cycle and become a useful thing.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s interesting you use the foam roller as an example like you did. If I’m on top of my foam rolling and I’m doing it consistently in my routine, my muscles generally respond to that foam rolling very pleasurably. I enjoy those sessions, and I can tell it’s really making my leg muscles a little bit more happy as I’m rolling on them. If I’m neglecting that and haven’t foam rolled in forever, I’ll have gotten a couple runs or a couple bike sessions and then all of a sudden, “You know what, I should probably foam roll!” My muscles let me know that they’re not happy with what I’m doing to them. So yes, to your point, it’s a great barometer for how my muscles are responding to the training, based on implementing that particular tool. I also like, BJ, how you talked about it’s how you feel in that cycle, how your muscles feel in between sessions, after sessions, before sessions. They’ll really let you know. For me, my pain cave in my house is upstairs, so how my legs feel heading up the stairs to do my next session often lets me know, “Oh man, I’m in for a long day, my muscles are already sore going up the stairs to get on my bike, and I haven’t even gotten on the bike yet!” How old-man-ish I feel going up the stairs is a good indicator for me on how rested or recovered I am.

BJ: It’s funny because we’ve gotten so reliant on our wearable technology to tell us what to do, to tell us how we feel. It’s like I need my Garmin to tell me if I feel good today or not.

Andrew: How many recovery hours I need!

BJ: Right. And we’re so worried about those numbers, but ultimately it boils down to how you feel, and these massage recovery tools and products are really an opportunity to explore how we feel. We just have to take the time to listen.

Andrew: Craig, the last time that you were on the show with us you talked about how the mission of your company, Medi-Dyne, is to keep people moving. 2Toms does that during activity by protecting our skin; we’ve heard quite a bit about that, I love using my 2Toms. And the ProStretch Addaday massage tools you carry do that before and after that activity. So what led Medi-Dyne, your company, to invest in products that help athletes massage and roll out our muscles?

Craig: It really all started with the ProStretch product. We had a study done a long time ago by a group of orthopedic doctors. It showed that people who used our Tuli’s heel cups and did stretching solved heel pain, which generally is associated with plantar fasciitis 88% of the time. That stretching component really enhanced the effectiveness of that therapy. So we started doing a lot of research into stretching, and realized the benefits that stretching has in not only recovery but also performance. That led us on a journey for years now to develop different stretching products, and we’ve got several in the product line. Then of course we were looking for a massaging and rolling product line, and the Addaday product line was a perfect fit. So we incorporated that into our company as well for the same reason, because the benefits that rolling and massaging has to performance and recovery. I don’t want to overuse this term, but we “follow the science”. We’re like, “Gosh, the facts are there, and it works.” Then from a personal experience, I had different injuries, different tendonitis. I was dealing with Achilles tendonitis, and of course the ProStretch product was perfect for that. So the proof’s in the pudding, but stretching, massaging, and rolling are key components to any athlete’s routine for warming up, performance, and recovery.

Andrew: So we know how many marathons and half-marathons are in your portfolio as an athlete, Achilles tendonitis is a condition that can immediately shut down somebody training for races like that. Has that product line and incorporating that into your regular routine really helped keep you healthy for those endeavors?

Craig: Absolutely, and not just the Achilles. It’s the calf, quads, lower back, the hips. As Dr. BJ said, if the muscles are hurting, you’re hurting. That’s the bottom line. So we’ve got to keep them healthy. It’s an integral part.

Andrew: So BJ, let’s hop on the Magic School Bus and get a little sciencey for a moment. Anybody remember that TV show? I bet somebody in our audience does. As our muscles are going through that cycle of being stressed, then recovering, then adapting to the training, what is actually happening in our muscles throughout that cycle?

BJ: Yeah, we can get as sciencey as you want. It’s funny, because with a lot of these things, we refer to there being an art and science to it. I always like to think of, “How can we use science artfully,” if that’s a word. Like we were talking earlier, the reality is there’s the normal stress recovery cycle of the muscle. A lot of people maybe realize it, maybe they don’t, but the reason you get sore when you train and really are working on building strength in certain areas is you’re literally tearing that muscle down. There’s micro-tearing that’s occurring to basically break that muscle down so then it can build back up. When you stress a muscle tissue by breaking it down, mechanically through training and different things, the body’s naturally releasing all kinds of things, metabolic stress factors, then it needs that time to build back up. That’s what we don’t always consider. We know that sometimes we get sore and we equate that to a good thing to a certain degree when we’re going for training effect, but what we don’t often take into consideration is that your muscle is truly damaged. It needs to recover. And spoiler alert, that recovery happens when you’re resting, not when you’re training. So a lot of people think they can just continue to train over and over and get that recovery while they’re training, but the reality is rest is such an important thing. We talk about a sleep a lot too, that’s obviously a big part of that. But what’s more interesting to me is what happens when we get into that abnormal stress-recovery cycle, that “are you overstressed or under-recovered” scenario, and the reality with that is this is we need something to help break that cycle, to help jump start us back into the healing and recovery process. When a muscle gets over-stressed, it all of a sudden enters into this energy crisis where it actually becomes tight and ischemic, where it’s not getting oxygen like it needs to, whether it’s restriction of blood flow because you are so tight, but then that can lead to sensitizing chemicals that can get you caught in the cycle. Like we were saying earlier, there’s physical stress that contributes to that, but there’s also psychological stress – a tough work day, relationships, different things that can play into that – where our muscles are always on, for lack of a better word. Then they get to this point where they don’t know how to turn off. There’s some scientific reasons as to why that happens chemically and mechanically. But the reality is they need something to jump-start the recovery process, to jump-start that return of blood flow oxygen to the area. That’s where it gets a little more artsy, as far as what’s really happening there, when we massage a muscle or try to hit a trigger point or different things. There’s different theories that aren’t completely confirmed, but all we know is it can work if we use it in the correct way. A lot of people say, “Muscles are muscles. If a tissue’s tight, you beat it up and tenderize the meat.” But the reality is that meat is attached to a brain, and a lot of what we’re doing, when we do these techniques to jump-start the recovery process, is literally influencing the central nervous system. We’re going to get into that more as we talk about these different types of products, but if we look at it through that lens, the reality is a lot of what we’re doing and affecting is our brain. We’re affecting our brain, and as a result it in turn affects our muscles. I think there’s a lot to that, that we aren’t quite fully sure of how it works, but we know it does work.

Andrew: So with massages and massage tools, even stretching, often it’s kind of a “hurts so good” kind of feeling. It can be painful to use them, but in a way that makes you feel better. So Craig, BJ, I’m curious to hear – and we’re going to go boom-boom-boom through the list of each individual product on the market and what they do – but in general, when we have a muscle like BJ said is trying to recover, maybe needs help jump-starting that recovery, what does the process of massage do in particular for the body and the muscle, regardless of what form that massage is in?

BJ: Like we were saying earlier, when you massage the body, whether you’re getting a professional massage or using a tool to do it to yourself, it’s really a chance for you to explore your body, and start to understand what areas need attention. Going in for a massage, somebody’s working on you, and all of a sudden they’re working into an area and you didn’t even realize was tight. All of a sudden you’re aware, and that awareness is the first step, figuring out where intervention needs to be taken. To your point, Andrew, there’s something to that “hurts so good” mentality. That’s another factor to discuss, because let’s be honest, the placebo effect is a very real thing. I’m not saying there’s nothing actually happening here and it’s all in your head, but the reality is that perception drives reality. So if you’re going into a massage, or using a tool to massage, and you are thinking it’s going to do something beneficial, the odds are you’re probably right, and it will affect your central nervous system because you’re expecting that. There is some things there. And the interesting thing about that is placebo effects tend to be stronger when the intensity of that manipulation or that feel is stronger. So when you feel something more, it’s more intense. Everyone’s wired differently, but a lot of times that placebo effect is more effective when you feel something in a stronger way. But again, there’s not a lot of science around recovery. There’s a lot of science that’s been shown to be inconclusive around recovery. So conclusive evidence is not all there, but the strongest evidence we do have out there is actually around massage, and I think a lot of it is strong there because of the fact of what massage is doing from how it affects the central nervous system. It’s obviously a mechanical input, but that mechanical input affects our central nervous system, gets us back into our parasympathetic state, that rest-and-digest state. I think there’s a lot there, just because somebody’s putting their hands on you or you’re feeling a manual input to the body, it sets our central nervous system up for a different response.

Andrew: Maybe other listeners will find this helpful as well, but even if it’s just for Andrew the Average Triathlete podcast host, I just want to walk through some of the more popular products that athletes can buy to get a little personal massage of sorts at home. Because I always wonder: I look at products that are online, I look at other things that people are using in their Instagrams and whatnot, and when I’m doing all that online shopping and browsing, all of these products have different variations. So I just want to hear from you guys what is helpful, what should we know about massage products, and what is just personal preference up to the athlete, what do you like. So for all these items – we’re going to go oneby-one – hit us with what they are for, why would we want to use it, and what we need to know about the variations. Craig, we’ll hear from you first. Let’s start with massage balls, the classic lacrosse ball kind of thing. And you’re holding on up right now, yes sir!

Craig: I keep it at my desk all the time, because it’s a great pinpoint massage tool. That’s mainly what I use it for. I’ll get certain areas of my body that are really hard to reach, or they’re very pinpointed. I have it at my desk all the time, but it’s a great portable tool, you can take it with you anywhere. But when you have real specific spots that you need to massage, they’re really good for that. That’s generally what I use those for, and I think a lot of people use them for.

Andrew: My favorite place to use them is my feet. I bought the trio of balls from Addaday, from MediDyne’s website, so I have literally three or four of these with different patterns and spikes. I’ve got one up in the pain cave in my basket, I’ve got one at my desk for when I’m just on work calls and want to roll my foot over it. I love these on my feet. My feet get a little crampy real easily – I don’t know if I just have poor blood circulation or something – but I like stretching my toes out over these, rubbing my feet over these when I can. It’s funny, I called BJ a couple months ago. I had just tweaked my neck, because I’m an old man, and I was just sleeping in bed and woke up and I could not bend my head to the left. BJ gave me a couple things to do, and a couple things he gave me included leaning against a wall with one of my massage balls, just right in the right crook and nanny of my shoulder blades, that was one of the steps he gave me to help pinpoint that sore area, to your point Craig. BJ, what’s your insight on massage balls?

BJ: It’s funny, because a couple years ago I was working with one of the top U.S. steeplechase runners, and he was making a run at Tokyo –

Andrew: Really interesting sport! Really fun to watch!

BJ: – but he obviously puts in a ton of miles. We were just talking shop after one of his sessions and I’m like, “So when you’re traveling to go to the trials, what do you keep in your arsenal? What’s your recovery method when you’re on the road?” And he pulls a lacrosse ball out of his backpack and he’s like, “This is it.” For him, his main issues are feet, calves, and hips, like you said. And like Craig said, it’s portable, you can get into those hard-to-reach places. He can use them for all these little “pin-and-stretch” techniques where you in essence pin down that muscle that might be taut, and then you do some dynamic contract-relax while that muscle’s pinned down just by pumping your ankle back and forth or doing various dynamic stretching movements. That was his go-to to keep his body reset and healthy. I’ve even had patients in the past where they’ve come in with chronic headaches, and I’ve told them to go out and get those 25 cent bouncy balls from those vending machines that the kids always buy out of. Get a couple of those bouncy balls and tape them together, and they fit right in that area of the suboccipital region at the base of your skull. There’s a lot of ways to get that, but those balls are great ways to do it. Then if you find something that’s working for you and there’s a lot of different products, buy something that’s got the durability. You could try the little 25 cent ball technique, but then if it’s working, find something that’s a little more durable that will last, and replace that. Yeah, they’re great techniques.

Andrew: There are several variations here. There’s ones with little bumps, ones that are harder, ones that are softer, ones that are bigger and smaller, ones that have little spikeys on the ends. I have several, and I use them based on which room I happen to be in at the time, and which one’s closest to me when I want to rub my foot or shoulder over something. BJ, do those different textures do anything different, or is it just an athlete preference kind of thing?

BJ: Yeah, it’s really a preference thing. This is the funny thing about the human body. Everybody’s body is different, and there’s areas of the body that are even different. I always equate it to muscles have minds of their own. Like if you were going to coach a group of athletes, some athletes are going to respond to you as a coach getting in their face and yelling at them. That’s the way they become motivated. Others are going to shy away from that. You’re going to need to use the gentle approach, soft encouragement. Everybody’s different that way. The body is a similar thing. Like we’re saying, muscles are attached to the brain, and there’s different areas of the body that need more aggressive work, and there’s areas that need a gentle approach. So it’s never a one-size-fits-all, you just really have to explore, experiment, and it literally might change year to year. There might be years where you need a gentle approach, and then other years where you need that really intense hurts-so-good feel. It’s all really individual. I’d like to say there’s a real distinct science to predict when and where, but there really isn’t.

Andrew: Very interesting and helpful. Moving on to foam rollers, everybody’s favorite way to torture yourself in your pain cave. Craig, what do we need to know about foam rollers?

Craig: Foam rollers are really great for some of the bigger muscle groups. I really like them because I feel like you can get a good steady, intense, but slow massage. As Dr. BJ said, every muscle is a little bit different, it has its own personality, and it’s a better way to massage those bigger muscle groups. I really like our Nonagon, which is our bigger foam roller for the back. I like that I can go slow with it, and really ease into the massage. Then we’ve got some different ones that are more portable, some different densities and so forth, and even a little bit different shapes. But in general that’s what I like about the foam rollers, is you can get some of those bigger muscle groups, and you can use your body weight to get good pressure, but you can slowly use that pressure to massage the muscles out. I really like that aspect of those.

Andrew: Spot on with my experience. I was introduced to foam rolling when I was maybe 26, 27 years old and I was having some lower back pain. I visited a physical therapist here in the Dallas area, and he got me doing a couple things with a foam roller. He’s explaining, “It’s not a problem with your lower back, it’s a problem with tight glutes and IT band,” and he showed me how to roll out those larger muscle groups. So I have two or three foam roller moves that I just keep in the rotation. He showed me, Craig, exactly what you said: slow and controlled. No reason to rush going back and forth, back and forth over that muscle, let it be slow and controlled. That’s how I approach my time on my foam roller. BJ, are we spot-on there, anything to add?

BJ: Yeah, I think Craig said it well: it can affect the bigger muscle groups in an easier way. And we haven’t talked about this yet, but positioning is really critical. If you can position on one of these products in a way that allows you to put a little bit of your body weight into it and relax, that’s key. If you’re not relaxing, if you’re holding your breath, there’s no way that recovery tool is doing anything for you. It might actually be chaining you up. So your ability to get on these products and find a position where you can then just let things go, relax and breathe, that’s a critical element. Bigger foam rollers like that can help you do that. But I’d be remiss if I didn’t get on my soap box as a physical therapist and say this – I’m always half-joking when I tell people this – “If foam rolling is truly working for you, you shouldn’t have to be a slave to it.” Let’s just put it that way. Because the foam roller is a staple, everyone talks about foam rolling, you’ve got to foam roll. But just like I tell my patients, “If you’re still seeing me in a year for the same thing, you’d better fire me because I’m not doing my job right, or maybe it’s on you that you’re not holding up to your end of the bargain.” The reality is, with all these products we’re talking about – and I’m just throwing foam roller into this because it’s the one that gets talked about the most – but if you’re using it as a reset tool for recovery like we’re talking about, that’s great. But what are you doing to reinforce that reset? What are you doing to make sure that you don’t need to continue? Are you changing some of the stressors that might be contributing to your body being over-stressed and under-recovered? So it’s the reset tools that we’re talking about that gets a lot of the press, but it’s also that next step in the process: what are you doing to reinforce that? So you can use recovery tools to your advantage, but you don’t have to play slave to them.

Andrew: Yeah, I definitely want people to catch that point that you made, because it’s crucial to our understanding of how to use massage tools, and it’s that you shouldn’t be fighting the massage tool. You should be using that to allow your muscles to be able to relax into that massage tool. Great point, BJ, that should be underlined and highlighted in your head by everyone listening. Moving on from foam rollers to massage canes. I’ve got to say, TriDot founder and CEO Jeff Booher has a massage cane at home, and when we meet as a staff at his house – Craig’s holding it up right now, it’s in his office behind him –when we were meeting at Jeff’s house for a couple days as TriDot staff, it always makes an appearance. It just gets passed around the room. We’re in meetings just chatting about upcoming TriDot initiatives, and we all pass around Jeff Booher’s massage cane, press it into our shoulders and things that are stiff from sitting there talking for a while. That was the first time I’d ever used one, and man, you can really dig into some key places with these things. Craig, talk to us about these canes.

Craig: You know, I liken the cane to a brother-sister product to the massage balls, because it’s a pinpoint type of massage. It does help you to get a little bit of movement, kind of like a ball, but it’s great for reaching those hard-to-reach areas. I keep this one at my desk that I’m sitting here showing you, for my upper back and my neck. When you’re sitting here all day and you’re hunched over a keyboard and looking at a screen all day, there’s just nothing better. Like you were talking about, you dig into those spots and it just provides a nice release, a good pinpoint to those troubled areas. They’re really neat products. There’s a couple other spots in my legs that I have a hard time getting even a massage ball in, and I’ll use these things. Your piriformis and hip is one of those areas, then parts of my hamstrings. They’re really great for just getting in there, and you can control the pressure really nice, but really pinpoint at the same time. This to me is an essential tool. I have them at home, I have them at the office. I just can’t imagine not having one available anymore, because there are sometimes I just have to have it.

Andrew: So if you were to travel with one of any of these tools, that would be the pick for you?

Craig: Yeah, and in particular this little one is just for that reason. It’s our mini “Knot Bad” we call it. But yeah, if I had to pick one, this would be it. I just love it.

Andrew: For our listeners, if you go to the Medi-Dyne website and click on the massage cane tab, the one specifically that he’s holding on the screen right now is the Addaday Mini Knot Bad Massage Cane. That is the top pick by Medi-Dyne Vice President of Marketing Craig DiGiovanni. I’m looking, Craig, at the Addaday Terminator massage cane. One, it’s TriDot colors, red and black. And two, it’s got spiky tips on the end, and I’m really digging the idea of digging that into some places. BJ, what do these canes do for us that maybe the lacrosse balls, the massage balls, and some of the other tools can’t do?

BJ: It’s funny, in the clinic we always talk about “search and destroy”. It’s the mantra you take of being able to explore the body, find the areas that are tight and sore, and that’s probably where you need to be. But yeah, I think massage canes are great, because it’s the position and your ability to relax. Massage canes are nice because you can apply a lot of pressure but still relax. It’s one thing to use your hand and grab your upper trap, but you’re straining to grab and reach and do all those things. But if you can use a hook to dig in in a firm way and just simply relax your arms as you pull down, there’s benefit in just being able to let the rest of your body go as you maintain that pressure. That’s kind of a unique thing about those canes. You don’t have to hire a professional to come in and do it, you can do it yourself and get some pretty effective release that way.

Andrew: Like we talked about, if it’s a spot that you can’t get to – maybe you can get to it with a ball or with your hand, but that doesn’t allow you to relax that muscle into the massage tool – having a cane might allow you to do that. I’m definitely going to have some seek-and-destroy sessions with this Terminator cane, because I’m just a sucker for the red and black TriDot colors. Let’s move on. So this is the big ticket, cool item to have in the personal massage item world, and that is the massage guns. BJ, you have some strong feelings about these. What would you tell us about using a massage gun versus some of these items we’ve already talked about?

BJ: Yeah, that is a whole podcast in and of itself, because vibration is just a completely different stimulus. It has gotten a lot of press recently because they’ve become very popular. The vibration is very unique. It’s almost this inhibitory process to the pain response you get when you’re massaging something that’s very sore. The science is kind of along the lines of what we call the “gate control theory”, which is if you bang your shin on something and then you rub around it, you’re increasing stimulus around it so it helps calm the pain down. It allows you to work on areas you know are very sore, but be able to tolerate it a different way. It’s a different input to the central nervous system. For some people the vibration can simply bring them back into that parasympathetic state a little bit more quickly. But it’s personal preference too. We’ve vetted a lot of different products in the clinic. You’ve probably heard me talk before that we use a lot of the Hyperice products like the Hypervolt gun. It's a great tool. It’s definitely not necessary – we can get a lot of the effect of what we’re talking about through these other methods – but it’s just another stimulus. It sometimes can bring people to where they need to be in a very quick way.

Andrew: I’ve met triathletes that will not travel without their massage gun. I’ve met triathletes that bought one, tried it, and just didn’t see what the hype was about. To your point, BJ, we established at the beginning of the episode that with all these tools, it’s really what does your body respond to. Because the whole intention here is hitting that reset on your body, and getting your muscles to enter that state of recovery. So if a massage gun does that for you, great. If it doesn’t, great. I personally don’t find it really helps me feel less achy or painy in my muscles after a session. What I like my gun for is used in conjunction with stretching. After I go for a run perhaps: if I know I’m going to spend 20 to 25 minutes stretching out those muscles on the backside of a run, I might use the massage gun on some of those muscle groups that I’m already stretching to enhance that stretching experience. That’s the way I like to use it personally. Great insight there, BJ. So we just learned about how vibration can induce a different feeling than some of these others nonvibrating items we talked about. There’s also massage balls and some foam rollers that add vibration, sometimes they add cooling and heating. BJ, what do these different stimuluses do for our body, if anything?

BJ: It’s just really switching up the input to the central nervous system again. Your body gets used to one thing, and that can be anything really. By switching it out and adding a different type of stimulus, sometimes you can take yourself to a different level than you would have otherwise. It’s very individual. It’s one of those things you have to try it and see, but ultimately it comes down to what does your brain perceive, and do you have a perception that it’s going to work. That’s another part of it. I was very skeptical trying a vibrating foam roller for the first time. I thought they’re expensive, they’re gimmicky, what’s this even going to do. Then I actually tried it, and I found that it did work for me in a way that normal foam rolling didn’t. It’s not to say that foam rolling wasn’t working normally without the vibration for me, it just probably for me was just a different stimulus to the nervous system that allowed me to relax in a different way. So I think we can get kind of caught up in what’s proven or what’s not proven, but at the end of the day it’s really about what you perceive is the difference in what you feel, and to get that you just really have to try it.

Andrew: That’s the cool thing here, because a lot of these items are easy to pick up over time and add to the arsenal. My most recent purchase was the Addaday trio of balls, so I got three different textured balls at once in my order. But I’ve been in a running store here, a triathlon shop there, and I might pick up a massage cane on one trip, and you just get to see what works for you. These honestly make great stocking stuffers for triathletes. If you have a loved one in your life who’s an athlete, throwing some stuff like this in the Christmas stocking is really a fun way to pick them up and try it and see if your body responds to it, if your body can relax into it and have some induced relaxation and recovery from it. Craig, since you’re the guy who sells so much of this – Medi-Dyne carries many of these products we’ve talked about, so you have the actual data and numbers on what athletes are putting their money behind and buying the most often – I’m curious to hear from you, what are some of the stories from athletes who are buying these products, and what products are people actually buying?

Craig: Ironically, next to our heart, the calf is one of the hardest-working muscles in our body. So the ProStretch product for stretching the calf, Achilles, and the plantar fascia is by far one of our best-selling products. Because it’s a muscle that really gets a lot of overuse, and it needs to be conditioned and taken care of. So that product is very popular. Also, plantar fasciitis is such a common and debilitating issue that people have, and it’s caused mainly by a tight calf. It’s really a therapeutic product for solving that problem. We sell the product for a lot of different reasons: plantar fasciitis, Achilles tendonitis, just tight calves, even tight hamstrings. It’s great for stretching even the hamstrings. That’s one of our best-selling products. We’ve been working and reintroducing the ProStretch Addaday products into a lot of running stores lately, and kind of ironically, you wouldn’t think this, but the product that gets people the most excited is our CoreStretch product. Our CoreStretch product stretches every muscle on the posterior side of your body. Starting with your triceps, your traps, your lats, your lower lumbar, really great for your piriformis and glutes, your IT band, your hamstrings, all the way down that posterior chain of your body. It’s a really great, unique, highly effective product. We’ve been getting a lot of attention with that product lately.

Andrew: Interesting, I’ve seen it on the website. I have a ProStretch – I’m going to be very clear on this, my ProStretch lives right underneath my desk, and I’m very passionate about it. Here at TriDot we have a 15minute staff morning connect call, we call it the “daily huddle”, every workday of the week where we just see each other, say “Hey,” interface, who needs what from who. Very often while I’m on that call, I am stretching out my tight calves with my ProStretch. I am very prone to tight calves myself. It’s probably an issue with my run form, that if Jeff Raines got eyes on my running form, he’d say it’s probably my fault that I have tight calves all the time. But I do, so it’s very helpful. I’ve seen the CoreStretch on the website and just never honestly paid it much mind, so that’s very interesting to hear that’s a topselling item. I’m on board, Craig, with anything that’s going to help me stretch out my glutes, which you mentioned.

BJ: Yeah, it’s really interesting, when you talk about those theories of stretching science. Again this could be another podcast in and of itself.

Andrew: Sounds good, let’s book it. Let’s plan it.

BJ: But it’s definitely therapeutic, and stretching is definitely a big thing that is advantageous. But what’s interesting about stretching is it’s not necessarily doing what most people think it’s doing. Like Craig’s mentioning, you can be on a device or something like the ProStretch or CoreStretch and get that instant release. A lot of people think, “I just lengthened my tissue mechanically during that period of time.” The reality is, that’s not necessarily what’s happening directly. If I have somebody on a table and he’s lying face-down, and I touch his hamstring and it’s sore and tender, you can tell it’s on. He’s at rest, but yet his muscle is not at rest, it’s in this balled-up, contracted state for lack of a better term. So a lot of times, what’s happening with stretching is, it’s a mechanical input of tensioning the system, but that evokes a response of the central nervous system that allows that muscle this opportunity to relax. I give you the groundwork to then relax, and by relaxing, in essence it’s changing length. But it’s different than mechanically, “I’m taking this structure and I’m pulling it out.” The reality is when we evoke that response of the central nervous system to let something go or to give muscle the freedom to completely relax, it can be night and day in a matter of 30 seconds. I think the biggest thing to take home that I advise people with regards to stretching is that longer and harder is not always better. A lot of times we’re talking about muscle tissue that’s ischemic, it’s lacking oxygen. So if we hold for long periods, hard intensities, sometimes that adds to the ischemia and it can almost make things worse. So I’m always a big advocate of light intensity, long, more frequent repeats of those stretches. In the clinic I always tell people to remember the rule of three: three sets, 30 seconds, three times a day. There’s various opinions on that, but that’s in general what I’ve seen in the clinic and what I’ve heard is the most effective way to approach stretching. Because stretching can be deleterious if you do it incorrectly, but done the right way using tools like Craig’s talking about with the ProStretch, it’s highly effective.

Craig: That’s exactly the regimen that we recommend, three-three-three. It’s exactly what we recommend. It’s funny you say that.

Andrew: I need somebody from the TriDot audience to photoshop Dr. BJ Leeper’s face onto Ms. Frizzle from The Magic School Bus for all the science knowledge he’s dosing out today. BJ I will say this, because kind of zig-zagging back to massage, there is of course the option of booking an actual massage, performed by an actual person. It’s more costly, and it’s a recurring cost unlike these massage tools where you buy them once then you have them. Is there a difference in between the impact a regular massage done by a person has on our muscles versus using these items to do it ourselves?

BJ: Yeah, it’s like you pay for a 60minute nap. I mean, it’s forced rest, right? I joke, but honestly it forces you to rest. It forces you to lay down, and you’re not having to worry about applying something to yourself. There’s a lot of benefit just in that simple fact. Not to go on a tangent here, but a lot of times with recovery, especially as Type A triathletes, we get so focused on, “What’s the best way to recover,” or “How do I do this, what’s the right product to get,” that it almost becomes another stressor thinking about how we’re trying to unstress ourselves. The reality is, our bodies just need to find whatever it is to relax. With professional massage, honestly just lying down and having somebody else dictate the exploration of where those areas are that might be restricted, there’s power in that assessment of having a massage. But you need to line up with the person. It has to be the right intensity like we’ve talked before, it has to be appealing to your system. There are such things as too aggressive massages to some people, where they don’t get the benefit because it’s too intense. And there’s others that are just too light, and you didn’t get anything out of it because they didn’t go hard enough. So if you line up and find the right person that hits you where your central nervous system needs it, it can be a huge effect, and there’s high benefit from that. But if you don’t get the right alignment, and post-race you sign up for that massage that’s free after the race and you get somebody that’s way too aggressive and the whole time you’re tense, then you probably would have been better off just grabbing the post-race beer and propping your feet up. You’d probably actually get more recovery benefit from that than a massage that didn’t line up with what your body needed. But otherwise I’m all for it, I think it’s hugely beneficial.

Cool down theme: Great set everyone! Let’s cool down.

Andrew: I am really excited to use today’s cooldown to introduce to the TriDot audience to someone that you’ll be hearing a lot more from moving forward. As we continue rocking with the podcast, and as we get our faces on our soon-to-be-released YouTube show, we thought now was a great time to expand the media hosting roster here at TriDot. We have a fantastic rotation of coaches and experts that step in and teach us from show to show. But to date, it’s largely just been me in the hosting seat. So longtime TriDot Ambassador Vanessa Ronksley will be coming on the show from time to time as something of a CoCaptain of the Middle of the Pack. I’ve had many conversations with Vanessa, and I am confident you will enjoy hearing from her as much if not more than you enjoy hearing from me. She is kind, she is curious, and she is entertaining, and I cannot wait for you to hear more from her as she contributes to TriDot media. So Vanessa, for the first time of many, welcome to the TriDot podcast!

Vanessa Ronksley: Thank you! I am super excited to be here, and I am over the moon to be a part of this amazing company and amazing team. I’m really looking forward to it.

Andrew: So plenty of our TriDot Ambassadors and more active members of our I AM TriDot Facebook group are already going to know who you are, particularly from your TikTok fame here at TriDot. But for the rest of our audience, hit us with the essential facts about Vanessa: where are you from, where do you live, what is your full-time occupation, what’s your family like, hobbies…whatever you want to lay on us, this is our “get to know Vanessa” time right here.

Vanessa: Okay, perfect! I am actually from Calgary, Alberta, which is way up in Canada. But I am currently living the dream in Sydney, Australia, as my husband’s on a sabbatical, and we live essentially an eight-minute walk from this gorgeous beach.

Andrew: I’m jealous.

Vanessa: Yeah, I know, it’s incredible. We’re close to everything, we walk everywhere, we don’t need a car. This lifestyle is just amazing. Yeah, living the dream here in Australia, it’s the absolute best, so that’s pretty awesome. As for my occupation, I was a high school biology teacher for a really long time, and when I had kids I realized that I could not be the kind of teacher that I wanted to be and I couldn’t be the kind of mom that I wanted to be at the same time, so I made a really hard choice to resign from my position as a teacher. It’s funny how things work out, because a little later I was offered a project management job at the University of Calgary. It’s quite a large project, it’s a training program to help improve the quality of research for women’s and girls’ health across Canada. I’m overseeing the whole thing, and it’s been so amazing to be able to a part of this cool work. So that’s my current job.

Andrew: And on the side, it gives you some time for podcasting, right?

Vanessa: Exactly, yeah, so that’s my other part of my work life at the moment is getting all involved in this podcasting, and I’m really excited about that because I think it’s going to be quite suitable to my personality. I’m lucky enough to be able to be working remotely from Sydney, so that’s great. For my family, I have a pretty amazing husband, we just celebrated our 19th wedding anniversary in September.

Andrew: Heeey, congratulations!

Vanessa: Thank you! I’m actually trying to convince him that being a triathlete is the coolest thing ever. But I still have my work cut out for me, because he hasn’t bought into the grand plan yet, and the grand plan is to be one of those cutesy triathlon couples, because that is so awesome, right?

Andrew: Yeah, we’re going to need regular updates on – his name is PJ, correct?

Vanessa: PJ, yeah.

Andrew: So we will need regular updates on how you are doing at convincing PJ to become a triathlete. That’s good stuff right there, can’t wait.

Vanessa: Yeah, well it’s a tenyear plan, just so you know. We’re about three years in, so I have some work to do. But yeah, that’s basically my hubby. We have two kids whom I absolutely adore. My son is 9 years old, my daughter is 6 years old, and they’re basically the best little people that I want to be around pretty much all the time. We love going on adventures together. We laugh, we do silly things, we talk about life, and I just feel so lucky to be their mom. One of the coolest things about triathlon that has infused itself into my family life is I really love teaching them all about what I’ve learned about grit and mental fortitude from the sport. It’s truly invaluable, and I just really hope that exposing them to this kind of mindset at such a young age sets them up for success later on in their lives. That’s basically me in a nutshell.

Andrew: Vanessa, that’s one of the things that I’m excited to have you on the show, is to share your perspective. It’s a perspective in the sport that I don’t have. Being average athletes, that works out across the board. That stays consistent amongst our hosts. But your perspective being in the sport as a parent, as a mom, I’m really excited for our listeners to get to connect to that side of you that they can’t really connect to listening to me. So with your move to Australia, there was some talk of you coming on board with TriDot to maybe help with some form of customer support, giving us a key support person on the other side of the world. But then Jeff Booher, TriDot founder and CEO, asked me, “What if Vanessa came on as a podcast and YouTube personality as well?” And I immediately was like, “My goodness, that is such a good idea!” Vanessa, when you were approached with the idea of coming on the shows, what was your reaction?

Vanessa: Well, I think you might want the truth, as opposed to the sugar-coated version. But I was absolutely terrified. That was my initial reaction.

Andrew: Yeah. Perfect.

Vanessa: Just because I have had not had that much experience speaking publicly aside from my teaching job. Which I love to do, because I basically feel like I’m performing in front of an audience every single day, that was kind of fun. But yeah, I was pretty scared. But then as soon as I got used to the idea I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is really exciting!” And I think it’s going to be amazing. So now, after it’s been a little small chunk of time, I’m actually really excited and I can’t wait. Like, “Let’s get going, I want to do this right now!”

Andrew: Great. Well, you and I have had some great conversations already, just about the podcast workflow, getting you up to speed, getting you ready to contribute. We’ve talked about how we want to craft our YouTube show episodes, that’s coming very soon. So now that you’ve had a little bit more time to wrap your head around it all, what are you hoping to bring to the TriDot audience as a contributor to the shows?

Vanessa: I think that something that’s really of value to me is that I wholeheartedly believe with my entire being that triathlon is for absolutely everybody. I can’t believe the number of people I have seen who cross those finish lines, and no matter who you are, you have the ability to accomplish that. When I crossed my first finish line, there was nothing in my life that actually compared to that actual feeling, and I want everybody to have that feeling. So what I hope to contribute is a space for everyone in triathlon, anybody in triathlon. Like me, I was not a swimmer, I was not a biker, I was not a runner. But I just got involved in the sport, and I want everyone to have that opportunity. I just want everyone to be able to experience all of that. And I want to inspire people to do hard things, because we can, we all need to do hard things. And I want people to laugh. I hope people laugh because it’s so much fun to laugh, and as you can tell from the TikTok videos on the Facebook page, I want people to smile and be engaged with the community. I hope that I’m infectiously enthusiastic, and that people can just feel the passion oozing out of me when I’m chatting on the podcast or doing something on the YouTube show or whatever. That’s hopefully what I’m going to bring.

Andrew: In the long term, our audience, you are all going to hear Vanessa jumping onto the show in all kinds of ways. In the near term, Vanessa will be taking over and crushing the podcast cooldowns. I have always wanted our cooldowns to focus less on the TriDot coaching team. You hear from us plenty in the warmups and main sets, and I’ve always wanted our cooldowns to focus more on TriDot athletes and your stories. So a lot of the funny or informative segments that we’ve done on our cooldowns historically will be moving over to the YouTube show in video form, so Vanessa will constantly be on the hunt for good short-form interviews that will add a lot of value and a lot of heart to the end of our episodes. On my side, I’m going to try to keep the main set flowing on time so that Vanessa has a good 10 to 12 minutes at the end of every episode to do a great cooldown interview. So be sure to stay tuned to the end of every episode moving forward for Vanessa time. Now Vanessa, I pitch myself as Andrew the Average Triathlete, Captain of the Middle of the Pack. As part of the TriDot hosting team, what can our listeners expect to hear you say as you introduce yourself?

Vanessa: Well Andrew, I’ve been thinking about this for a really long time. I was like, “How can I top Andrew’s tag line? It’s the best one ever!” So I felt kind of intimidated to come up with something just as fancy and as cool as that, and basically the only thing I could come up with was, “Vanessa the Average Triathlete”. So I asked my husband, “Can you just help me out?” And immediately he blurted out, “Vanessa the Average Triathlete with Elite-Level Enthusiasm!” And I’ve been playing with that one.

Andrew: Pow! Pow pow!

Vanessa: I think it’s hilarious, but it’s absolutely true. That might be one that sticks, but we’ll have to see. Maybe it’ll be a surprise, but it could be along the lines of Elite Level of Enthusiasm.

Andrew: Well that’s it for today, folks! I want to thank Craig DiGiovanni from Medi-Dyne and TriDot’s Director of Human Performance, Dr. BJ Leeper, for helping us make the best use of our massage, rolling, and stretching tools. If you want to do a little online shopping for some of the items we talked about today, head to Medi-Dyne.com to check out the ProStretch Addaday recovery tool lineup. Use promo code TRIDOT for 20% off your order. While you are there, add a sample of 2Toms SportShield anti-chafing towelettes into your cart. You will adore them, I promise. Thanks so much for listening! We’ll do it all again soon. Until then, happy training!

Outro: Thanks for joining us. Make sure to subscribe and share the TriDot podcast with your triathlon crew. For more great tri content and community, connect with us on Facebook, YouTube, and Instagram. Ready to optimize your training? Head to TriDot.com and start your free trial today! TriDot – the obvious and automatic choice for triathlon training.

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