TriDot Podcast .231

Alcohol and Athletic Performance: Exploring the Relationship and Risks

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Intro: This is the TriDot podcast. TriDot uses yourtraining data and genetic profile, combined with predictive analytics andartificial intelligence to optimize your training, giving you better results inless time with fewer injuries. Our podcast is here to educate, inspire, andentertain. We’ll talk all things triathlon with expert coaches and specialguests. Join the conversation and let’s improve together.

Andrew Harley: Welcome to the TriDot podcast! Big show today, as we'll talk about theeffects of alcohol on triathlon training and racing. Is it okay to be a littleboozy, or is it better to stay booze-free? Let's find out with some expertguidance today. Our key guide for this talk is our resident nutritional expert,Dr. Krista Austin. Krista is an exercise physiologist and nutritionist whoconsulted with the US Olympic Committee and the English Institute of Sport. Shehas a PhD in Exercise Physiology and Sports Nutrition, a Master's degree inExercise Physiology, and is a Certified Strength and Conditioning specialist.Krista, welcome back to the show!

Dr. Krista Austin: Hey Andrew, glad to be back. We're going to becovering a hot topic. Maybe we can provide a few insights, and it might givesome smiles to everyone who's listening. Hopefully we can do that and put asmile on their face for the day.

Andrew:Also joining us for this conversation is Bill Shufelt. Bill is the co-founderand CEO of Athletic Brewing Company. He worked on Wall Street for over a decadebefore setting out to create the first great-tasting non-alcoholic beer.Through his efforts, Athletic Brewing Company has won multiple awards for foodindustry innovation, and is filling the coolers of more and more athletes andnon-athletes alike. Bill, thanks so much for joining us here on the TriDotpodcast!

Bill Shufelt: Thanks so much for having me, I’m excited to be here! I love what youguys do!

Andrew:I am Andrew the Average Triathlete, Voice of the People and Captain of theMiddle of the Pack. As always, we'll roll through our warmup question, settlein for our main set conversation, and then wind things down with our cooldown.Lots of good stuff, let's get to it!

Warm up theme: Time to warm up! Let’s get moving.

Andrew:  Now I personally have never been a bigalcohol guy. My first sip of anything alcoholic was champagne on my honeymoonat age 26. Currently, I might have two or three drinks of anything at allthroughout a full calendar year. So a quick shout out to the folks in ouraudience who do not partake in alcoholic beverages of any kind. All good, Icommend you for that, I see you. You can still listen and learn from today'sepisode, but today's warmup question might just not be for you. I almost didn'task this, but to be 100% honest, I'm just too curious to see what our audiencehas to say on this question. Krista, Bill, for today's TriDot podcast warmupquestion, when you are partaking in an adult beverage of some kind, what isyour drink of choice? Doctor Austin, over to you.

Krista:You know, it's rare that I do. But if I am with a group, I will order some redwine. I am not a big alcohol drinker. Those desserts always call my name,Andrew, and it wins every time. You know Dr. Austin, she's looking at nutrientintake, total calories for the day, and going, “If I'm going to spend my dollarhere, what am I going after?” So usually desserts win out. I'm the person therewith my glass totally full, but I got the chocolate cake sitting there withmaybe some vanilla ice cream and caramel going on it, and I’m enjoying that.I’m not a big alcohol person, but I will use red wine when with a group.

Andrew: Okay,it's hard to fault you for that. Whenever you go out to eat out somewhere andyou sit down for the meal, you have to decide. Do I want to spend my extracalories, my extra dollars on an appetizer? Do I want to get a dessert? Do Iwant to get some drinks? And if you're going to just pick and choose one ofthose, it's hard to fault you for going for the desserts. Bill, what is thisanswer for you?

Bill:So, I haven't consumed alcohol in over ten years at this point. So speakingstrictly of non-alcoholic adult beverages, there used to be no options. Nowobviously I love non-alcoholic beer. But really there are more and moresophisticated drinks across all categories. Non-alcoholic red wine for example,like Krista said. Non-alcoholic cocktail menus are becoming more and morepopular. It's an exciting time in adult beverage for sure. And also definitelysign me up for the desserts. I'm an enormous foodie and have probably thebiggest appetite of anyone you've ever met. A big motivation for all the milesand workouts I do is so I can eat whatever food I want also.

Andrew:I am glad we are all three on the same page here with loving desserts when wesit down for a meal, that's good validation for me personally. Bill, I lovethat your answer here is representative of the part of our audience who mightalso want to answer that they just don't partake of an alcoholic beverage ofany kind. They might have a mocktail or something in place of that. So when yougo answer this question on Facebook – when I pose it to the, I AM TriDot Facebook group– keep that in mind, that Bill has already answered with a non-alcoholicchoice, and you can too. That is absolutely okay. This answer for me – it'skind of funny, because again I'm just not big on drinking the alcohols. So itkind of became a game for the TriDot staff, whenever we would go out to eat atan event or just a staff get–together, different staff members on team wouldtry to be the first one to buy Andrew a drink, and find a drink that Andrewactually liked. Usually I didn't like whatever it was. But the two things fromall of our staff trips that we've actually found that Andrew actually enjoysare mojitos and espresso martinis. I will gladly drink one of the two of those.If it's not one of those, I would rather just have a Sprite or a glass ofwater. Guys, we want to hear this question from you. We're going to pose thisto our audience to see what you have to say. So go find the post on the I AM TriDot Facebook groupasking you – when you sit down and decide to have a drink with your meal, whatis your personal go-to beverage of choice?

Main set theme: On to the main set. Going in 3…2…1…

Andrew:  Hey folks, TriDot is currently running the2024 edition of our annual research project that we call the Preseason Project.We are looking for non–TriDot athletes who want to jump into the researchproject this year. Qualifying athletes get two free months of TriDot training.It is literally two months of the best training available, in exchange forTriDot getting to analyze the training data that comes in from those sessions.I started training with TriDot during the 2018 Preseason Project, and immediatelytook a liking to the structured training schedule. And I started seeing hugeimprovements in my swim, bike, and run. Even once the two-month researchproject was over, I committed fully to TriDot training, and have used it foreverything from local sprints to my very first Ironman. I'm fitter and fasterthan I've ever been, and more importantly, I'm enjoying my races, the sport,and the triathlon community much more than before. I also have a podcast now,but that is a different story for a different day. If you are already trainingwith TriDot, now is the best time to invite your tri friends to participate inthe Preseason Project. And if you are a podcast listener and have never givenour training a try, use the link in the description for today's show to see ifyou qualify.

Allright. Excited to learn more about the way alcohol affects our training andracing. Very thankful to have Dr. Krista Austin and Bill from Athletic BrewingCompany here to talk to us about this one. Bill, Krista, as you both talk withathletes about alcohol, what is the common sentiment? What percentage ofathletes would you say are drinking versus abstaining? And for those that areabstaining, is it usually for the sake of performance, or is it just a lack ofinterest? I guess this is a long way of asking, what are you hearing fromathletes when it comes to alcohol?

Krista:Well, you have to remember that most people show up knocking on my door,Andrew, just because they're looking to modify some aspect of performance. Itmight be through things like weight loss, and I would just say that even then,rarely do I have one that consumes more than one to two drinks a week. So Iwould say on the whole, they just don't show up with a whole lot. Back when Iwas in team sports, that was a different story. I saw a much higher consumptionof alcohol intake, and I would just say that only rarely do you come acrosssignificant use of alcohol in endurance sport, even though we know thatathletes usually consume more alcohol than the average person. But you have toremember that at times, endurance athletes will decide to do things like adifferent version of Ironman, let's say, where it might actually incorporatealcohol. I don't know if you're aware of this, but there's an Ironman inHermosa, and this Ironman consists of a mile-long run on the beach, a mile-longpaddle in the ocean, and then pounding a six-pack of beer immediately aftergetting out of the water. So you can imagine it's quite the spectacle, but it'sa tradition that is held there for the locals. So I would say for most of theendurance athletes I've worked with, either it's got to be something like thatthat they're drawn to, or on the whole they don't consume it. I will say I havemore chocolate consumers than anything.

Andrew:Oh wow.

Krista:Yeah, they're chasing like, “How much of the really fun foods do I get to have,Krista, when we're making these modifications?” So I'm usually working onnegotiation processes, Andrew. You’ve got to remember that I might not seeeverything that's out there, just because of why people come to me. But thoseare my perspectives on the endurance population and how they perceive alcohol.

Andrew: Yeah,so this is kind of taking us back to the same notion from the warmup question,where the three of us were opting for dessert in most cases over buying adrink. So maybe we need to do a podcast sometime soon about how chocolate anddesserts affect the training and racing of triathletes. Bill, with your teamand your work with Athletic Brewing Company, what are you hearing from athleteswhen it comes to consuming alcohol?

Bill:Yeah. Well, I think almost to zoom out before too, the word “sober” is kind ofan outdated word almost, where it emerged from the Prohibition era. These days,rather than like, “drinking or not drinking” – people have occasions theydrink, or training periods like, for example, the triathlon training season orthe Ironman training season. People have their training blocks or their focusperiod ahead of the race, where they may be a non-drinker in that period, butthey may drink at other times of the year. Some of our NFL or college footballathletes on our athletic roster, they may not drink all week, but they may havea beer or two, an alcoholic drink on Sunday. So I would say in general, so manyof our athletes that we've worked with at Athletic Brewing have come to usorganically because they say they do not drink, either at all or in theirtraining blocks, and they had been dying for a beer that met theirhigh-performance training lifestyle needs. And they were so psyched that whenthey finished that long swim and training ride on a Saturday, that they couldnow have a celebration beer to mark that occasion, but not affect their sleepand other things that night. So many people in the ultra-endurance community,from triathlons to ultra-running, to marathon runners and stuff, have naturallymigrated to our brand, because it is all the fun without the alcohol.

Andrew:Yeah, absolutely Bill, it makes sense that with your place in the sport,representing Athletic Brewing Company, that's what you're hearing when you'reinteracting with athletes about alcohol. But I had this question, and it's justtotally out of naivety, what is alcohol? I think it's a carbohydrate, but maybeI'm thinking that beer is a carbohydrate and alcohol is just in beer, so I'mprobably mistaken on that. Dr. Austin, break this down for us. When weconsume alcohol, what exactly are we putting in our body?

Krista:It depends really on the alcoholic drink, but on average you're putting 14grams of alcohol into the body, that's a standard serving. That could be either12 ounces of regular beer, which is about 5% alcohol. It could be 5 ounces ofwine, which is typically about 12% alcohol. Or 1½  ounces of a distilled spirit, which is about40% alcohol. So it just depends on how you're looking at alcohol in and ofitself, what you're putting in, but that's kind of the average that's out thereand that's reported. People obviously can buy something stronger, or havebigger glasses or, be in a country where they make their beer differently andit's far more than that. It really just depends on what you standardize thingsto. It’s a carbohydrate, but at the same time it's a carbohydrate that impairsthe breakdown of glycogen. But the question is how much do you actually need toconsume to get that to happen. A lot of the research studies that were done outthere – I remember a colleague who participated in one – they're drinking like3 to 3½ liters of beer when they do those studies. That's a lot more alcoholthan most people consume. So as a sports nutritionist, you kind of say, “Well,is maybe one beer, or something equivalent, negligible when it comes torecovery?” Especially if they stopped and had their carbohydrate/proteinbeverage right after training, they eat their meal, and maybe just with themeal they have an alcoholic beverage of choice. Is that really going to do thesame thing? The answer is probably not. And in a lot of cultures that's theapproach we've taken, so that they're not out there doing what they do in thestudies and compromising performance. But if it is a part of their culture, wesay “Okay, when should they have it, even if it's one serving a day?” Back inthe day, I worked with England's cricket team. If you just Google them, youknow that alcohol is a big part of that culture. So the question is, “Yeah,this is part of the culture, how do we optimize performance?” And really it wasjust like, “Hey, when we build the recovery center, should they be able tochoose one alcoholic beverage after they've had their recovery products, andbeen snacking on what we've requested, and just sit back and chill out witheach other.” So it's really about how much you are consuming, and what you areconsuming, that you're really taking a strong look at here.

Andrew:So if we put the athletic stuff aside for just a second, and just talk aboutalcohol in our body, what effect does alcohol have on our body once we consumeit, and how long does that affect tend to last?

Bill:I should qualify, before I answer, I'm speaking of like my own experience orthings I've read, and not on behalf of Athletic Brewing making health claims.Athletic Brewing has not done any scientific studies or consumer studies on theeffects of alcohol or anything like that, so I'm not representing to that.Another major qualifier is I'm not nearly as qualified as Krista to comment onthis stuff, so I'm –

Andrew:And that's why you're both here, Bill. That's why you're both here.

Bill:Yeah. So I'm largely relaying my personal experience as – you said “middle ofthe pack” – I am very much an enthusiastic recreational participant. Iabsolutely love training, I love endurance, but you'll never find me on anypodiums or anything. I am a huge enthusiast and devourer of information too,but mostly what I speak of is my own experience.  So kind of layering in on top of what Kristasaid, I've generally read that in alcoholic drinks, per 1% ABV in the drink,it's generally 20 ethanol calories, which is generally emptier than a qualitycarbohydrate or other substantive ingredients. To put that in a different way,if you're drinking a 4.5% light beer that's about 100 calories, 85 or 90 ofthose calories are generally ethanol calories, and the rest is very littlesubstance and water.

Andrew:Wow.

Bill:That's a real consideration if you're really stressing your body. And it's notonly athletes – modern life is performance-challenging in so many ways. So itdefinitely is a consideration, like what are the inputs you're putting intoyour body and the outputs you're expecting from that. I'll share my personalexperience. When I stopped drinking about ten years ago, I was just gettinginto ultra-endurance. I was essentially, in the midst of all my other workouts,running one mile farther every weekend, and I was laddering up. All of a suddenI was passing 16, 18 miles and feeling pretty good. And I was like, “Wow, I'mgoing to stop drinking for a month and just see how this feels to keep going.”And I got up to about 30 miles running on the weekends, and I realized I justlove running distance. But something else that really clicked for me, when Istopped drinking for that month, was I was sleeping better than ever.  Which I didn't really realize was an adultpossibility. I thought everyone was just stressed out, and I was under theimpression alcohol helped me sleep. But when I stopped having a drink at night,I actually found I was sleeping much better, personally.

Andrew:Interesting.

Bill:And I’d always been someone who kind of survived my workouts. I loved workingout, but I was like surviving them. And when I stopped drinking, I felt like Iwanted to accelerate the whole time. I'd go for a five-mile run and positivesplit every mile throughout the run, which was definitely not a thing of thepast. It was feeding through my sleep, my workouts, my work performance, and mydiet ultimately. So all those things have been better and better supported bydata over the years. Ten years ago, fitness wearables weren't nearly where theyare today, but you can look at your sleep data in a number of different waysthese days, and really get a good picture and see how what you consume affectshow you sleep. That's been really exciting for me. I'm generally a big believerin very simple concepts, and removing alcohol was such an easy one for me,because it positively impacted my sleep, it positively impacted my generalconsistency of diet. And the gains of my training – whether it's weighttraining or endurance training – aren't in the moment of when I'm doing it,it's while I sleep that night and onward. If your body is trying to process thealcohol, which I think puts demands on the liver to digest different alcoholbyproducts, that is repair that's not going on with lactic acid and otherthings. I'm not quite scientifically qualified to dive very specific into that,but I do know recovery happens at night when you sleep largely, after theworkouts. The inputs after you're done with your workout are very important toyour ongoing gains. That was kind of the simple take-away for me when I stoppeddrinking.

Krista:Bill, I have a question for you. This is just off of watching younger guys comeoff their training and seeing what they do. And sometimes what they'll do,instead of grabbing the carbohydrate/protein beverage that you want them totake, they go to the fridge and they open a cold one. And what I noticed wasthat they weren't refueling like they needed to and with what they needed to.Did you notice anything linked to that with regards to recovery? That was justwhat I noticed, I said, “Why are you going to the fridge and getting a beer toplop down on the couch? You're going to drink that before you do mobility, and– “

Andrew:“Because I ran 20 miles, Krista! I deserve it!”

Krista:Yeah, and I've heard that from elite runners, you know? But I was just like,“Hey, if we could do recovery first, and then if you want to consider your beerlater at night – “ Did you notice any patterns like that that shifted for you?I mean, that might be their age and just the fact they're really young, so theydo things like that.

Bill:Yeah, I noticed it both after long runs and things like that. Like if I was toset on my grill and have a beer or two or three beers while I grilled. Or aftera Spartan race or something like that, where it's a very physically demandingmountain race, and you get to the end and have a beer, or whatever it used tobe. I didn't really want a beer in that moment. Not only because I'd be drivingmy car after that, it's because I just put my body through hell in so manydifferent ways, and I'd like something more wholesome and rounded. That's whywe're so excited to be at the finish lines of things like Spartan races, toothese days. But yeah, I definitely realized that. I think I wasn't smart enoughin the moment, but I reflect back on that time, and I think about the injuriesI used to rack up in my long training runs and things, which I don't really getthese days anymore. I think that's partly because I'm more mindful of mystretching and band work and stuff, but also because I get great sleep.

Andrew:Dr. Austin, Bill just shared his own personal experience of what it was likefor his body to come off of alcohol, after being used to consuming it for sometime. And Bill, I’ve got to say, the science that you included in your answerthere, I thought it sounded pretty impressive and pretty sound, but we'll letDr. Austin as the expert weigh in here. Dr. Austin, is what Bill expressedsomething that you would expect to hear, just based on what you know about whatalcohol does to the body?

Krista:You know, I think alcohol is different for everyone. I guess the better youare, maybe the more you get by with, is what I've noticed. But it's also abouthow you consume it. We kind of talked about the pattern that I noticed in youngguys, where they would come home, and instead of recovering like they'resupposed to, they open the fridge and have the beer. Or like Bill's talkingabout, they go out and start grilling, they start having beers, and they don'tdo the recovery process. What you notice is that typically they are the onesthat have some kind of impedement.  Nowat the same time, if they're young enough, they may get by with that impedementand still continue to improve performance. I would just say that because it'sso variable in terms of how people respond – we've got genes that not onlyimpact how alcohol impacts cognition, hydration, how our kidneys work and whathave you – we're going to have the same variance probably with regards to howpeople respond to alcohol. I'll never forget the day that I had an athletereally go out drinking one night – and we usually poo-poo all that, right? –comes into the strength and conditioning room and just crushes a session andgoes, “My gosh, I feel good,” and walks out. He was a professional footballplayer in the NFL. And I said, “Well, that's the best workout he's ever done.Okay.” The next day he sobered up, and he trained well, he kept going. But hehad had a night out on Saturday or Sunday or something like that, and he cameback and just really crushed it on Monday. And I said, “I've never seen himtrain that well.”

Andrew:Wow.

Krista:So remember there's differences. I've even had Ironman athletes at the elitelevel who drink the night before, and if you watch their performances, it'samazing what they go out and do sometimes. But they are so physically robust,and they're out competing against a crowd where they're like, “I don't have togo that hard today.” So ironically, they'll go win an Ironman after havingconsumed alcohol the night before, of course with those French fries, but theywere carb loading, they said.

Andrew:Sure.

Krista:So you just remember it's different for everyone, and oftentimes it's alow-hanging piece of fruit to take a look at for athletes who are strugglingwith either recovery, weight loss, sleep. You say, “Let's just see how it'simpacting you.” And all of them respond differently. Now what I'll also sayabout those athletes is that they were not chronically consuming alcohol at alevel that you would say is harmful. And I would say that athletes who dochronically consume it at levels that are above probably like one drink anight, they start getting into two, three – you're going to see some kind of anissue probably long-term. So I think it's just all about their patterns, andhow those patterns translate with regards to impacting training capability,performance, and then of course are they just that gifted. I don't know that 80calories means a whole lot, but chronic use is probably what we need to take alook at. Like, is it replacing something that is of value to your nutritionalplan.

Andrew:Gotcha.

Krista:Something that very few people know about me is that my godfather was in theNFL, and he struggled to keep weight on. So they were like, “How are we goingto get this guy to keep weight on?” He ate everything, he was just a super-highmetabolism. They would watch him eat, and they were like, “How are we going toput weight on this guy?” This was back in the 60s, 70s. And they would feed himalcohol. After he had eaten everything, they would say, “If we could just getyou to have some extra calories in beer.” For some reason they gave it to himin beer. I don't know how frequently they gave it, but they would say this waspart of the key to gaining weight. This is years and years ago. So there's justa lot of variance there, and the question is where is it placed, how is itutilized. I think a lot of young guys, when I've worked with them at thatcollege level or just post-collegiately, or they're not even 30 yet – I wouldsay that age group, sometimes they're putting alcohol in a place where it just– I don't want to say that it doesn't belong, but it just doesn't complementperformance. So if you teach them how to approach alcohol, just like you teachthem how to approach maybe fast food, you will improve performance for them.They'll maybe optimize the body weight. You show them that it's low-hangingfruit to help improve their performance. It's just how you manage it.  But it is calories that for many peoplebecomes excessive.I think when I talk about endurance athletes, they show upand say, “Hey, Krista, I want to lose weight,” or, “I want to change bodycomposition,” things like that – if there's excess alcohol intake, we're goingto look at it, Andrew, and say, “How is this impacting your goals and outcome?Because for you, this is a meaningful 300 calories that you are consumingfrequently enough that is impacting your end goals.” It is no different,though, than how frequently they eat out and possibly consume all the caloriesthey just used in a deficit during the week. So they'll go on the weekends andsay, “Let's go to the Cheesecake Factory,” or something like that. Not knockingCheesecake Factory, I love it just as much as everyone else. But they'll go andbe like, “Well, it's my fun meal for the week, Dr. Austin said I could haveone.” And they have so many calories in that fun meal that, unfortunately –

Andrew:It's like five fun meals all in one.

Krista:That's right, it's five fun meals all in one, and the entire caloric deficit wewent into for the week – well, they recouped it and then some, with one trip tothe Cheesecake Factory. So remember, with nutrition, with food, there'sbehavioral patterns, and the question is what's the impact and outcome of that.

Andrew:Yeah. So, Dr. Austin, I'm curious as you're working with athletes, as you're asyou're making your recommendations to them, does the form factor of the drinkitself –whether it's a beer or a wine or a cocktail or whatever – does the formfactor change your recommendation in how you like to see them approach thatdrink? Or is alcohol just alcohol, the calories are calories? What do you sayto the athletes that you're working with?

Krista:No, we always approach it in terms of how it's placed into their life,  and what they need to do with it. So I mayhave an athlete who has been through Alcohol Anonymous. We're not going to goanywhere near it, because of the trigger that it is for them. Conversely, I mayhave one that says, “Look, I come in, I have one to two a night, but I do needto lose five pounds for my upcoming 5K race.” And we'll just start to peel itback one at a time, it doesn't matter what it is. And for others, maybe it’sjust their tradition is a glass of red wine at dinner, and you leave it alonebecause they're chronically adapted. They don't have any performanceimpairments that we can detect, and they actually go without it at times justbecause, “We're just not having it tonight.” But then every once in a while,you do get the athlete that you're like, “Hey, let's chat about this one. Thisis not healthy, and the lab work shows it.” You guys have probably heard metalk about being evidence-based with athletes in terms of their choices. And inthat case, because it's a health factor, we start with health parameters. Do wehave anything we can measure in biochemical testing that says to this athlete,“The alcohol you're consuming is harming your health.” Then we go into performancefactors and say, “Do we have anything that can demonstrate to them that it'simpeding their performance?” So I think it's always about how you approach itwith the athlete, and say “Does one do something more than the other?” I don'tknow. But usually it's the athlete that appears to have a pattern that isconcerning, that we typically say, “Hey, let's take a closer look.” I'll behonest, when people say, “I have a glass of champagne or white wine during theweek,” and I see one in the nutrition record and they're like, “Can I keep it?”I'm like, “Go ahead.” Is there any addiction there? Sometimes you have tounderstand whether addiction comes into play at all in nutrition, and that canhappen if it's alcohol, sweets, sugar, just over-consumption of even healthyfoods, because the person is addicted to food. I think in nutrition we look atpatterns, how do we break the pattern?

Andrew:Yeah, very interesting to hear that perspective from you. It really gives usathletes a reality check, because that there's a lot of different addictions,or things that we can over-consume, that are harmful to our training andracing, that isn’t alcohol. Alcohol has this certain stigma, but it's not theonly thing that we can over-consume at the detriment of our health and ourfitness. Bill, I'm curious for you, as you're interacting with athletes, bootson the ground at races – they're discovering your drinks, they're gettingjazzed up about your drinks – are athletes usually switching over to drinkingyour brews because they're trying to replace alcohol in their lives, or arethey just finding the brews and wanting to drink them because they like it ingeneral?

Bill:Yeah, exactly that. And not only always replacing, too. It's very oftenadditive occasions, and extra-award occasions, or good meal pairings during theweek. And from an athletic standpoint, we've never taken a prohibitionaryapproach. We never want to be soap-boxy and telling people what they can andcan't do, or they shouldn't be drinking that, it's bad for you. Really, we justwant to offer something that's an option, and exciting, and hopefully abetter-for-you element of their lifestyle that they can integrate in, feelgreat about, have it be one of the most exciting parts of their day. Like thegreat pairing for a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday meal or like a post-ride drink.And exactly as Krista was saying, it's all how it works with the rest of whatyou're doing. At the end of the day, these are just foods, and alcohol is afunctional ingredient that is in those foods. Alcohol could in many ways beconsidered alongside energy drinks or things like that, alcohol is just adifferent functional ingredient. I think some really nice things about beer –just in talking about ingredients versus potentially other categories of drinks– beers generally are four very simple ingredients. Water, hops, yeast, andbarley, which are generally pretty clean-label, simple ingredients. I myselfgenerally try to eat as many simple foods, whole foods, and one-ingredientfoods as I can. Also, one thing I didn't mention before, is that alcohol as aningredient is dehydrating too. So if people are choosing to have alcoholicdrinks, they may want to consider what does the hydration or electrolytereplenishment playing around that look like.

Andrew:Oh, true. Yeah.

Bill:We don't test or advertise the electrolytes in our drinks, but we do knowthere's potassium content and electrolytes in beer. There's all sorts ofresearch on the Internet about beer and electrolytes and stuff like that, thatthey've talked about in Europe. So if you have those qualities of beer, butwithout the alcohol, that in theory is a nice, hydrating, simple beveragethat's a nice building block. That's exactly what we hear from athletes all thetime. Some people get to the end of their race before they discover there wasnon-alcoholic beer they could have had the whole training block. And otherpeople are like, “You guys got me through my training, and I'm so excited tohave a beer here.” It's just really fun to be part of the celebration, becauseit's very often a year-long journey or more for people to get to those Ironmanfinish lines, and it's just fun to be the smallest part of that and helpelevate the finish line environment. We like to find people as early in theirjourney as they can, and Ironman has been great, as well as so many othertriathlon partners, in helping us find athletes in the community.

Andrew:Bill, I just have to say, it's been really cool to see your brands just explodein recent years. I feel like this is one of those things where triathletes areoften the trendsetters in sports and enduring sports. We're willing to adoptthings earlier than the rest of the sporting community and the generalcommunity. And I feel like Athletic Brewing Company brews are an example ofthat. I saw them post-race at triathlons before I saw them anywhere else. Thebrand is exploding right now, I've seen you guys featured in the New York Timesand Wall Street Journal and several publications featuring the rise of yourbrands, producing the first good-tasting non-alcoholic beer. So tell us, Bill,what is it like for you as co-founder, CEO, just to see what's happening withthe response to your brand in recent days, months, years?

Bill:We're just really building brick-by-brick, and trying to make delicious beer. Ithink part of the difference is, inside our walls we've actually builtbreweries dedicated to non-alcoholic beer, which no one had really done before,and most haven't done since. It's really just a celebration of the quality anddifferentiation of the beverage, quality and consistency is super-important.But to what you said, off the bat, athletes discovering us, the community is soimportant too. One of our earliest “celebrity” athletes to reach out to us wasBen Hoffman. He reached out, and he had discovered us somehow like right as welaunched, basically. And he's like, “I've been drinking your beer for almost ayear, I've been telling everyone about it.” He's like, “Can you give me somesort of agreement for this?” But it was so cool that it just resonatedimmediately with that kind-performance training lifestyle, and it's been so funto see the community develop around that. I reference it at the races I run anddifferent things like that. You know, when we launched the company, I didn'thave to take it to Google to figure out what races can I do our samples andstuff. I just started bringing coolers to races I was going to run, whetherthat was any kind of race, any distance in the community, and handed outhundreds of beers every weekend to sweaty people having fun, whether that'sofficial races, or run clubs, training groups, swims on Saturdays and stuff.It's just been so fun to have that community grow around the brand, that's beenone of the most meaningful parts of the journey for me.

Andrew:So I want to be very clear, Bill did not ask to come on the show. This is not acommercial for Athletic Brewing Company. When I set out to have a conversationabout the effects of alcohol on triathletes, the two people that I wanted onthis show, this episode, were Dr. Krista Austin and Bill from Athletic BrewingCompany. I love the voice you both have on this topic in our sport. And I wantto say that to preface this question, because it's going to sound like acommercial, but I promise you it's not, I'm genuinely curious. Bill, for theportion of our audience who maybe hasn't tried Athletic Brewing Company, andthey're interested in testing out one of your brews, what's a flavor that maybethey should start with? You guys are always putting out these new concoctionsinto the space that sound super tasty. So what's a good starting point forsomebody interested in trying one of your brews? And how do you come up withthe next flavor or set of flavors in the first place?

Bill:Yeah. I mean, I like all our beers, most of them. But like our Run Wild IPA, Iactually happen to be drinking right now just by coincidence. It's 1:45 in theafternoon and I had it with my lunch today. That's kind of an example of the flexibility of non-alcoholic beer ordrinks, where it does kind of fit into the day, and it's not a line-in-the-sandmoment where, “Oh, I drank alcohol, now I can't do all these things.” I'm justback on with my day, and live on a podcast. But in terms of innovation, it'sreally drawn by our team, our community. People throw out ideas all the time,and we have these small systems in our brewery. We are constantly brewing fun, innovative stuff. Like the other day atour west coast brewery, I saw a brewer dumping tons of chocolate into one ofthese very small fermenters. And I was like, “Well, this can't be economical.”And it turns out he was messing around with a spiced hot chocolate beer, and loand behold, that launched on our website athleticbrewing.com yesterday. That's literally how fast ithappens, it's like two weeks from “fun idea in the brewhouse” to “on thewebsite”. And then our most highly-awarded beers are readily available out inthe world.

Andrew:Yeah, it must be very fun to know that anytime you walk through the brewery,you never know what your people are going to be up to, in terms of trying tocreate new drinks. That's pretty cool to hear. Krista, I'm curious to hearabout this one from you – for many athletes, after they’ve crossed the finishline, having a celebratory drink is just part of the motivation for being outthere in the first place. Is it okay to indulge in an alcoholic beverage afterputting our bodies through a race-day effort? What do we need to be mindful of after we cross that finish line when itcomes to alcohol?

Krista:Mine are the ones in the tent having the burrito, the oranges, and the Gatoradeor whatever it is that's in there. They might even have a soda, to be honestwith you, if they've wiped all that down and they want a Coke or something. Butat the end of the day you will see them, once they've recovered, possibly havean alcoholic beverage. That's what I encourage them to do, is that if you'regoing to have it, have it in its right and meaningful place, rather than assoon as you come across the finish line. I think what Bill has with his companyis they've created something that maybe can replace the Gatorade when you walkinto the actual tent. So something to try is to put it there by the otherdrinks they offer, and see if people reach out. Have that in place of the otherbeverages, because it doesn't have alcohol in it. And then maybe they do stillgo ahead and have an alcoholic beverage later that night when they go out fordinner. But I think athletes have to remember what the body needs for fuelingand recovery and what have you. That's always first and foremost, is to makesure you can recover. And I think when you do see the NFL player that shows upto strength and conditioning after maybe a night out, what you have to rememberis that he's also been taught how to recover. He did his recovery nutrition,and then he went out for the night. He comes back the next day at10:00 a.m. and crushes it, probably because his muscles are filled withglycogen. Now, you don't see too many Ironman athletes doing that after a raceor a hard day of training, just because it's a different energy system, it's adifferent recovery process. But I think you've got to look at it from, “How amI impacting recovery, and how frequently am I doing this?” That's what I alwaystend to pay attention to, is how frequently are these athletes engaging withalcohol, and is it harming recovery, performance, or even just parts of life.I've always seen athletes gravitate towards Coca-Cola. I don't know what it isthat triggers in their brain afterwards to have the cold Coke, but I'd beinterested to understand what's the difference these days between the Cokeversus maybe what you're offering. Do they have that psychological reward tothe taste of beer, even though it's non-alcoholic, over something like Coke?Maybe the burrito and your product is what they choose. It's always interestingto watch what people choose, what runs out first, things like that in the tent.

Andrew:Hey Bill, even just anecdotally, when you are on site at the races – I'm sureyou don't have somebody going around counting how many athletes are taking oneof your brews versus taking a different a drink or snack after the race – butjust anecdotally, when you are at the races, what percentage of athletes do youthink are grabbing one of your drinks versus an alternative that's offered inthe post-race tent?

Bill:Yeah. You know, obviously a lot of water, for sure. But at any given race we’reset up at, we tend to see 20 to 30% of racers grab beers.  After especially like an Ironman orultra-endurance event, people potentially are less experimental, they’re insurvival mode. Maybe as they come back to the race and cheer on other peoplefinishing, then they might be more receptive to a beer at that point. Butgenerally, a lot of people are just crushing anything cold, and love a coldbeer. As you said, the Coca-Cola – I see it at all sorts of triathlons andultra-endurance events, and there's something about the carbonation and thesugar and everything that people just love and crush. But speaking from my ownself, as generally a recreational athlete, or a “weekend warrior” or “corporateathlete” type, I try to just do a calc – it's so easy these days – on how manycalories have I burned in this race or on this day, and fuel up to probably adeficit level on that. Or if I'm in a period where I'm working really hard andtrying to make gains, I might do a calorie surplus and stuff, but I try toladder up I would say. But yeah, sign me up for any of it, burritos, pizza,cookies, athletic beer. I'm here for it all.

Andrew:It all sounds good, yeah. So something I wanted to talk about before we shutthe episode down, is for athletes that maybe drink a little bit more than theywould like to, and they've just had a hard time lowering their alcohol intake,maybe kicking that alcohol habit entirely. Bill, you shared your personalexperience a little bit ago, but what advice do you both have for cutting downon the amount of alcohol an athlete consumes?

Bill:Yeah, definitely not my place to give people advice on their own habits andstuff. Speaking from personal experience, I think historically in periods of mylife where I've drank too much, is I thought everyone drank a ton. Especiallyif you go back five or ten years, I think the social stigmas were even higheraround not drinking. And the perception that permeated society was that if youeither had a problem with alcohol, or weren't drinking, you were in like theone percent.  Very often it felt like that,there were no options. If you tried to order a non-alcoholic drink, peoplewould give you all sorts of funny looks. Or you might just not go out if youweren't drinking. It took me stopping drinking and looking around to realize –and of course I've done so much research for Athletic Brewing – that over 30%of adults in this country don't drink at all. Actually, 45% oflegal-drinking-age Gen Z does not drink, which is pretty crazy. And 50% ofadults have 0.14 drinks or less per week. So if social pressure is part of theproblem for people, well now there are options. And just trying to arm peoplewith data so they feel okay about making those choices. So I think peopleshould put aside the social stigmas and order exactly what is best for them.That may be alcohol, it may be non-alcoholic. But it took me a long time torealize that, “Oh wow, there are actually so many people not drinking, anywhereI was going,” and I was actually probably in the top 10% of alcohol consumers.

Andrew:Krista, as you work with athletes, what's the advice that you give them interms of trying to lower that alcohol intake?

Krista:Yeah, so I kind of put it into the category of working with addiction. Anaddiction can be anything from alcohol, to food, to training, to otherbehaviors. Maybe it's even the use of dietary supplements, sometimes I feellike people get addicted to the use of dietary supplements. It's aboutunderstanding why they're using it, what the mechanism might be behindconsuming whatever they're consuming, and then starting to work towardssolutions. I mean, I've had clients where at times I run out of solutions, tobe really frank with you, and I see guys start looking elsewhere. They havetried other sports nutritionists, they've tried other programs like OvereatersAnonymous, Alcoholics Anonymous, then we come back and things maybe aren'tresolved. It's about digging deeper into what we can do to help you, maybe justone day at a time, one meal at a time, to address the addictive behavior. I'llgive you an example right now. I haven’t done a lot with alcohol addiction,just because probably the population I show up with for the most part has beenso performance-focused, we don't see too much of that. But I've had a clientthat for years we've been trying to figure out the binge-eating aspect. This issomeone who is an acknowledged binge eater, so you could say this with alcoholas well. We tried everything, from different types of nutritional approaches tocurb appetite, family members supporting not binging on the food that's infront of them, and things of that nature, doing things one meal at a time, usingfood-control boxes. We tried everything, working with a psychologist, and wecouldn't get anything to work. So at one point we just actually took a breakfrom trying to understand it. Then the other day I said, “Okay, we have nottried this yet. On Fridays, after work, we are going to have you come home and not eat anything just afterdinner.” I said, “Can we just try one night where you don't eat anything afterdinner?” If you binge at dinner, or as you come in to dinner, totally cool. Butanything after dinner is off-limits.” And the person said okay. I said, “Thisis the one variation we haven't tried yet.” So you're dealing with addiction,you've got to find those patterns. Well, sure enough, lo and behold, thatworked. But they came back and said, “Well, I still overate, because I justoverate prior to dinner.” And I said, “Okay, so here's the goal for this week.Measure out dinner, can you do that for me? Going into Friday, measure outdinner. How well does this work? If we're successful at that point, then maybewe can walk it backwards on the one day. If we can figure out the one day, thenmaybe we'll figure out another day in the week.” So remember you're workingwith people that have addiction, and the question is what's the mechanism,what's the behavioral patterning? And I would say the same thing with alcohol.Can you break them off from it? That's where the Athletic Brewing may actuallyhelp with that, because if it tastes similar, it provides a similar socialeffect, it provides a similar pattern, you might not only reduce theircalories, but also the consequences of those calories.

Andrew:Yeah, very true.

Krista:It's always tricky when you're working with addiction, or working with excessconsumption. I would say that's probably one of the biggest challenges we havein society today. What's going to be the solution?

Andrew:The last question that I want to ask today, and I admit I'm almost asking thisin jest. But I don't know, maybe this will help somebody out at some point inthe future. If an athlete goes out and just has a little extra fun with somefriends on a particular occasion – and maybe they got to get up and get in atraining session the next morning or get back to their life, family, workobligations the next morning – do either of you have any hangover-kickingadvice? Dr. Austin?

Krista:You know, we always go after hydration with high enough levels of sodium thatyou're going to be able to retain the fluid. Because typically that hangover isreflective of the dehydration process that you've undergone. And thenconsistently just nibbling throughout the day, especially on carbohydrate,because it does impair your ability to break down glycogen. It gives the livera little bit of a break, if you can just keep nice steady blood-glucose levels.So just trying to get them to consistently fuel throughout the day and hydrateis usually the big key.

Andrew:So Bill, is your advice just to drink Athletic Brewing Company brews and noteven experience the hangover in the first place?

Bill:I mean, it's been quite a while for me since I've had a hangover, and generallythat's a pretty good feeling. No judgments though. We can only control what wecan control going forward, so replenish anything you can, put one foot in frontof the other, and there are brighter days ahead.

Cool down theme: Great set everyone! Let’s cool down.

Vanessa Ronksley: Welcome to the cooldown, everyone! I'm Vanessa,your Average. Triathlete with Elite-Level Enthusiasm! And I am here with theone-and-only Dan Caskie. Dan is an exceptional human. I'm sure many of you haveseen his enthusiasm shine through in his role as TriDot’s Ambassador andCommunity Programs Leader. But you may not know that he also owns his medicalpractice as a physician's assistant. He is involved in race production anddirecting. He is a TriDot coach and an athlete as well. To be honest, I'm notactually sure that Dan has time to sleep with all of these roles and hats thathe wears. Triathlon has played a huge role in his life as a means to gethealthy. And he is on a roll, with having lost over 100 pounds since 2017. Heis a USAT Level 1 Certified Coach, and is passionate about helping busy andtraveling professionals balance work, life, travel, family, all while crushingtheir triathlon goals. With his analytical mind, he excels at using data to gethis athletes to their next level, and he focuses on recovery to keep the bodyin tip-top shape. He lives in South Carolina with his beautiful and supportivewife Kim, and is a proud parent to two amazing kids. Welcome to the cooldown,Dan!

Dan Caskie: Hey, thanks for having me, excited to be here!

Vanessa:I'm excited to have you here, and I'm also excited to hear about thiscollection that you have going. You apparently have quite a few collections,all the way from tech gadgets to shoes, but the collection that you own thegreatest number of items, is barbecue grills and smokers. Tell me, how many ofthese do you actually have?

Dan:Well, if Greg Perron will tell us how many bikes he has, I'll tell you how manybarbecues I have. I think the answer is “N + 1” in this situation, right?That's the most appropriate answer, yeah. If we count them, then it mightactually say I have a problem. So I have a history as a competition barbecuechef, and I'm an “EGGspert” with Big Green Egg, I used to teach classes and hadmy own catering company.  They're alltools, right? Very important tools. They're all very important, I have to havethem.

Vanessa:Yeah. And just like bikes, they all have a very unique purpose. So you can'thave too many, really.

Dan:You cannot have too many, not at all. You’ve got to have the ones you need. Imove them around, we switch it up a little bit. I think this weekend I’ve gottwo in mind that we're going to be firing up, so it's going to be a good day.

Vanessa:Oh, that's awesome. Well as we have learned, you have many passions. So youmust be highly organized to make sure that you have time for all the things inyour life. So what Coach Tip can you share with all the busy athletes out therewho need to fit everything into their schedules?

Dan:Yeah, one of the things that I want to highlight and I talk about, is planningand preparing. If you have a busy work schedule and maybe a stressful day,sometimes when you have that lunch break or middle of the day, that's the besttime to actually plan for your workout sessions. So review it early in theweek, and early in the day, that's my planning tip. So what that looks likewith TriDot, if you're at the complete Mark Allen or Premium Level, if you're acoached athlete, you can have your workouts for the next day e-mailed to you atthe time you desire. So I have an email every day in the afternoon that comesto me, and I can look at it, and when I look at my next workout, instead ofjust winging it for a while, I would just say “Hey, I know I'm working out inthe morning. I'm going to get up at 5:00 and pull up the app and whatever ittells me, I'll get things to go.” But you may have to load up a course, ordownload something on Zwift, or maybe the weather's changing, or maybe you’regoing to be in a different city and you don't know if they have a treadmill inthe gym or not. By looking in the afternoon, I can plan not only tomorrow, butI can think about the rest of my day. What am I having for dinner tonight? Whattime do I need to get to bed? Am I going to do a little extra time in thecompression boots? Focus on my hydration, do I need to get some food togetherbecause that's going to be a two-hour event versus just a 90-minute orsomething like that. So by looking in that afternoon, I can plan for tomorrow abit better. Now, if I was super-organized – I'll admit it, I think I'm justhyperactive, which is how I get through all this stuff – and if I wassuper-organized, when I finished my workout I would clean everything up andprep for the next one. But I tend to wait until late in the day, because I'mlooking for that excitement of the next thing. And if I'm traveling, that givesme time to pull up one of the many apps that you can find a great ride in,maybe you need to make sure you head down to the hotel gym to see what shapetheir treadmill or their Peloton is in or something. I am a YMCA NationwideMember, so I definitely can tell you how easy it is to find a YMCA, and most ofthem you can fit your camper in their parking lot. I know there's a lot ofpeople who are Planet Fitness members as another way to always be able to finda facility. So if you just plan that ahead, you're more likely to get yourworkout in. Another tip that somebody gave me, when I started my health andfitness journey, was that when you check into the hotel, the first thing youshould do is walk into the gym. If you walk to the gym, you've already foundit, you've already solved the problem, you've already made it that much easier?They say it's easier to go for a run if you put your shoes out the nightbefore, right? We're still going to do that, but we're thinking about it in theafternoon now. So now I'm like, “Okay, I know the clothes I’ve got to get. Ican download an app.” Maybe if you're going to use an indoor trainer ride likeFulGaz or something, and you don't want to worry about the Internet, you candownload that the night before, so you're not caught off if the internet's downbecause it's stormy. If you need to check your bike tires – those kinds ofstuff. So that little bit of prep certainly eases that moment when the alarmclock goes off and you want to roll over, because you're already half-committedto the workout, because you've invested in the planning of it. So one way tohelp get those workouts done when you don't really want to, but you know youneed to.

Vanessa:That's a really fabulous tip. See, I'm not the most highly-organized person,and I generally have this visual of myself flying through the air by the seatof my pants. It happens on a regular basis. So having that time, you've setaside a time to organize yourself, which is really amazing. I think that's areally great tip.

Dan:But also the mental preparation of that, what you focus on, you find. So ifyou've already envisioned yourself, “Hey, I've got a, a threshold workouttomorrow.” You're already thinking about what you're doing, that seven-minutethreshold. So you're going to be that much easier to prepare for it and maybethink through some things. Now, that's good and bad because if you if youbonked or failed last time or didn't hit the numbers – if you're super type A,maybe that adds some anxiety because you’re like, “I’ve got to nail my unicornor ponicorn or something.” But I think anytime that you can think through thatvisualization of you're going through an exercise – for swimming, I use my PoolSchool workouts. I just go Grades 1 through 12, that's my warmup now, so thathelps me remember that and I don't have to look through the different ones,Maybe you need to look up a drill, maybe you need to go on YouTube and watchJeff Raines tell you how to Skip A, B, C, or D or something. Again, that littlebit of preparation you do in the middle of the day – a lot of people say do itright before bed, but maybe you're ready to go to bed and you're fatigued. So Ijust had to keep backing it up until I found a spot in my day that helpedmotivate me. Plus, when you know what you’re going to have for dinner, you'relike, “Hey, I'm earning that for tomorrow,” Or, “Hey, I'm going to pay for thatif I have a heavy gut from last night when I get out there in the morning.” Soit helps you make some good choices all around.

Vanessa:I have to say, I really like this planning business. So you're saying the bestthing is to plan your workout, and then you're also meal-planning at the sametime, so you're not arriving home the next day being like, “What am I going toeat after this massive training session?” That's brilliant!

Dan:Right. So you’ve meal-planned dinner, or you at least thought how your meal thenight before is going to affect the training the next day. Then you can say,“Well, if I’m making sure I have light tonight, and then am I going to havethat protein shake, or am I going to continue fasting and work out fasted? Whatam I going to do?” Because our body – “calorie in and calorie out” kind ofworks, but we're more of a chemistry experiment than a bank account. So yourbody needs that, and maybe intermittent fasting is a really cool way to do it.But again, it's that time management that helps as you're getting that food,hydration, exercise in there. Yeah, it's been successful for me, and as I'vetalked to others, it's kind of helped them as they're balancing it. Plus itgives you that midday distractor, when you're about going to the water coolerand having a Coke and cookie, that looking at your workout tomorrow, maybeyou're thinking about your goals a little bit might help you stay away fromthat. Just go get you an espresso and knock out the rest of the afternoon.

Outro:Thanks for joining us. Make sure to subscribe and share the TriDot podcast withyour triathlon crew. For more great tri content and community, connect with uson Facebook, YouTube, and Instagram. Ready to optimize your training? Head totridot.com and start your free trial today! TriDot – the obvious and automaticchoice for triathlon training.

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