TriDot Podcast .233

Slow Down to Speed Up: The Benefits of Zone Two Training

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Intro: This is the TriDot podcast. TriDot uses yourtraining data and genetic profile, combined with predictive analytics andartificial intelligence to optimize your training, giving you better results inless time with fewer injuries. Our podcast is here to educate, inspire, andentertain. We’ll talk all things triathlon with expert coaches and specialguests. Join the conversation and let’s improve together.

Andrew Harley: Welcome to the TriDot podcast! And whoa boy, do we have a hot topic foryou today. Zone 2 training is possibly one of the most talked-about items onthe I AM TriDot Facebook group. Athletes have questions when it comes to doingZone 2 training correctly, and why do we train in this zone. The first onejoining us is TriDot coach and TriDot staff member Matt Bach. Matt is anaccomplished athlete with an Ironman Maryland victory, and 72nd overall finishin Kona on his résumé. He worked on Wall Street as a trader and portfoliomanager for nine years, earned his MBA from Temple University, worked inmarketing at UCAN for 2½ years, and has now found his home as the VicePresident of Marketing for TriDot. And gosh golly, as the Vice President ofMarketing, Matt and I work together an awful lot. Matt, good to see your face,welcome back to the show.

Matt Bach: Glad to be back, it's been a while!

Andrew:Our second coach joining us today is TriDot Coach, Brady Hoover. Brady is fromNewburyport, Massachusetts, and he has been training with TriDot since 2018,and coaching with TriDot since 2019. He's a Certified Functional StrengthCoach, an ACSM Certified Personal Trainer, and also a Strength Program DesignSpecialist. Brady is an Ironman U Certified Coach, a USA Triathlon CertifiedCoach, and a Certified Running Gait Analysis. He is a nine-time Boston Marathonqualifier, with a 2 hour, 48 minute marathon PR. Brady, welcome toyour first full episode of the TriDot podcast. I know you've appeared on thecooldown before giving us a Coach Cooldown Tip, but today you're on the mainset in the coach’s seat. How does that feel?

Brady Hoover: Andrew, thanks for having me on. I am so excited. You reached out to mewith a topic that's near and dear to my heart, Zone 2 training. I can't preachit enough to my athletes, as well as anyone else that wants to talk Zone 2, soreally excited to be here.

Andrew:Well, I am Andrew the Average Triathlete, Voice of the People and Captain ofthe Middle Of the Pack. As always, we'll roll through our warmup question,settle in for our main set conversation about Zone 2 training, and then windthings down with our cooldown. Lots of good stuff, let's get to it!

Warm up theme: Time to warm up! Let’s get moving.

Andrew:  At the time of this recording, the 2024Academy Awards ceremony is happening this weekend. Many of you may know it asthe Oscars. If you are listening to this podcast episode, the Monday it wasreleased, the Oscars were literally yesterday. Now, this is one of my favoriteTV broadcasts all year. I never miss the Oscars, so in honor of the Oscars,here is my warmup question for y'all today. If a Hollywood movie were comingout with a triathlon-centered storyline, who is one actor or actress you wouldlove to see in the cast? Matt Bach?

Matt:For me, Dwayne Johnson.

Andrew:Hey!

Matt:The guy is all over the place. He is a professional wrestler, he's in “The Fastand the Furious” stuff, he's the voice of Moana, he's also all over the placein what he does. And with all those massive muscles, to see him doing atriathlon, especially the swim portion, would just be – I feel like humblingfor him, but also really entertaining. It's kind of reminiscent of the CrossFitGames – I think it was like ten years ago, and they’ve probably done it since –they had swimming. Seeing all these like brutish guys and gals, like hugemuscles, and they’re just muscling their way through the water. It was a sightto behold, so I feel like we'd see a lot of that. My one requirement would bethat Dwayne would have to be part of the cast as one of the people doingtriathlon, triathlon training and racing, so that I would give us thatentertainment factor.

Andrew:Brady Hoover, what is this answer for you?

Brady:Jees, being from Massachusetts, I’ve got to go with Kate Bosworth. She grew upin Cohasset, Massachusetts where my wife grew up. She played a star role inBlue Crush, so she was the first person that popped in my mind. You know shecan swim because she can surf. I would love to see her on a bike, and how couldshe hold up on the run?

Andrew:The one I’ve got to go with, she is actually nominated for an Academy Awardthis year, 2024. She's in the Best Supporting Actress race, and that is AmericaFerrera. She was in the Barbie movie, and got nominated for that, and verydeservingly so. And the reason I'm picking America – one, she's a phenomenalactress, I've enjoyed her work in several different movies and shows over theyears. But she is actually a triathlete. So how cool would it be? She racesquite a bit, she's very involved with her local tri club. I think TriathleteMagazine or somebody did a piece on her a few years back. But to have anactress who is amazing on screen in the first place, but then knows how to be atriathlete, how to portray triathlon, and talk about triathlon, I think wouldjust add a whole different level of authenticity to it. I don't know if youguys have ever seen a high school football movie where they have thequarterback dropping back for a pass and you're like, “No quarterback at anylevel throws a football that way, right?” It just makes it look so inauthentic.To have an actual triathlete on the screen, portraying triathlon, I think wouldbe really valuable, so she is my pick.

Allright, we're going to throw this question out to you, like we always do. I'mcurious to hear, is it your favorite actor or actress, or is there somebodythat we haven't mentioned today that you would love to see on the screenportraying triathlon? I'm going to throw this question out to the I AM TriDot Facebook group,so find my post asking you this question, and let us know what actor or actresswould you love to see in a triathlon-based movie.

Main set theme: On to the main set. Going in 3…2…1…

Andrew:  We are over-the-moon excited to partner withRaceQuest for a new initiative we are calling TriDot Trips. RaceQuestspecializes in endurance sport race travel, camps, and experiences, and theywill be helping us put on multiple top-notch trips for the TriDot family in2024 and beyond. At every TriDot Trip, you can expect totally rad trainingopportunities, clinics with our coaches, special guest presentations, and somuch more. All set in picturesque train-cation-worthy destinations. For 2024,we have five opportunities to train and race with other TriDotters on theschedule. For 2024, the locations are Boulder, Asheville, Roth, Kona, and CostaRica. Lots of great stuff, so head to race-quest.com and click on TriDot to check out all of theseoptions. The password for that web page is TRIDOT in all capital letters. Andof course, reach out to the team at RaceQuest for more information and by theway, you can reach out to RaceQuest if you are interested in their help to planthe travel for your own triathlon trip as well.

Allright, Zone 2 Training. We've titled this episode, “Slow Down to Speed Up”. Weget so many questions at TriDot about executing your Zone 2 sessions, why wehave to train at certain paces in Zone 2, that Cindy Reeves from the TriDotsupport team personally asked me, “Will you do a Zone 2 episode of the TriDotpodcast?” So here we are with me on the mic, Coach Matt, Coach Brady in thecoaches’ seats today, to answer this question. So Cindy, thanks so much forletting us know a lot of people are asking about this. Happy to educateeverybody on Zone 2. So guys, let's dive into this. The very first question is,“What is happening in our bodies when we train at Zone 2?”  Matt Bach?

Matt:Yeah, I'm no biologist or scientist or doctor, but I know some key points aboutwhat's happening when you are training in Zone 2. Zone 2 is known as youraerobic zone. So your body's consuming lots of oxygen, it's using a lowerpercentage of carbohydrates than it is at higher intensities, and it's using ahigher percentage of fat than at higher intensities in order to produce energy.The more that you use your aerobic system, the better your body gets atutilizing your aerobic system. At least to a point, which we'll get into thatI'm sure

Brady:Oxygen is the primary driver when you're training in that zone. Ourmitochondria, which is the powerhouse of our cells, is actually becoming moreefficient, it's becoming stronger. Much like muscle fibers, the mitochondriacan multiply due to the stress of training in Zone 2. We get better atutilizing lactic acid, which is a waste product that our muscles generate whenwe're training. That lactic acid can go into the mitochondria, and themitochondria can use that as energy. We actually become more efficient at thatby training in Zone 2. As it relates to strength training, things that you'llnotice are lower resting heart rate. So as you're moving through some of thosesquats and deadlifts, the primary driver of that is oxygen, but it also needs carbohydratesand glucose, so your body can actually tap into those glucose stores and usethat to help fuel your lifts.

Andrew:  Yeah, and all those things you guys aretalking about only happen in Zone 2. So that, for me, on the run especially –man, I just want to run the pace I want to run. Sometimes I don't want to keepit slow in Zone 2 when TriDot tells me to. But I try to tell myself, “Hey, youknow this from working for TriDot. You know that if you speed up and your heartrate climbs, you will not get what you're supposed to be getting out of thissession.” Your body just will not do those certain things that Matt and Bradyjust talked about. So for all my listeners, keep that in mind when you're inZone 2 running, and you’ve got to slow down a little bit to keep the heart ratewhere it needs to be.

Brady:I’ve got one more point to add, Andrew. So for distance running, reallyanything 5K and beyond, slow-twitch muscle fibers is what we're using and whatwe're tapping into, and those ones depend mostly on oxygen for energy. Ourfast-twitch muscle fibers that we'll use in weight-lifting and stuff like that– we're still tapping into those slow-twitch ones, but those fast-twitch onesneed glucose energy. So if you're training for a 10K, a half marathon, amarathon, how important is fueling those slow-twitch muscle fibers?

Andrew:  Yeah, incredibly important. Now, we're goingto focus most of the rest of the chat on Zone 2 specifically. But before we do,I want to lay a little bit of groundwork talking about all the zones. And we dohave a podcast episode where Coach Jeff Raines and Coach Ryan Tibball actuallywalked us through at a high level the purpose of each zone. But just in thecontext of this conversation about Zone 2, there's some workouts that athletesare going to get where the whole workout is in Zone 2, and that's easy enough.There's some workouts that you get where you're in Zone 2 for a little bit,then you're in Zone 5 for a little bit, then you're in Zone 3 for a little bit,and it kind of hops around the zones. So talk to us about the place that Zone 2has alongside the other zones in our training sessions. How do all the zoneswork in harmony, as we spend our time training? Matt?

Matt:Yeah, one of those key things to know is that Zone 2 is going to help you getfaster, but only to a certain degree. So using those other zones to stokecertain anaerobic energy systems and otherwise, then you're going to bereaching a higher maximum than you would if you just did tons and tons ofvolume in Zone 2. That's really one of the biggest keys here, is that you needto have the right mix. And that's what TriDot does so beautifully through youroptimization, is it gives you that right mix for the right time of year foryou, given who you are from a genetic perspective, from an age and genderperspective, and allows you to maximize your training by utilizing all of thosedifferent energy systems.

Brady:What I like to say to my athletes is Zone 2 is essential for endurance, ouroxidative system, which is our main driver, our main energy system that isstrictly delivered through oxygen. The oxidative system is for thoselong-duration aerobic activities. Then we have the glycolytic system formoderate-duration of activities. And then we have the – I'm going to butcherthis word – phosphagen system, which is where ATP is used, that's used forimmediate and short bursts of energy. Having a stronger mitochondria is alsogoing to allow you as the athlete to recover faster when you're doing thoseshort intervals, allowing that ATP to replenish so that it can be used to helpyou get up that next hill.

Andrew:  And athletes will see in the swim, bike, andrun throughout a week, you will have workouts that prompt you to use all ofthose energy systems, is that right?

Brady:Yeah, that's correct. That's correct.

Matt:Yeah, sometimes even within the same workout, you'll be using two, three, fourdifferent zones in the same workout. But one interesting thing is that Zone 2is used in nearly all sessions.

Andrew:  Yeah, that's true

Matt:Maybe it's either your warmup, maybe it's your cooldown, maybe it's the rest inbetween intervals, or maybe it's for the entirety of your long run. But Zone 2is a very large portion of what you do, because there are so many gains to behad from working that aerobic system.

Andrew:  We find when athletes come to TriDot, andthey start doing the structured training for the first time, a lot of themstruggle with letting the Zone 2 be easy. Why is that transition to adjustingto training in Zone 2 properly so difficult for athletes to make? Brady, whatdo you think?

Brady:Often I'm told it doesn't feel natural to them, or it feels too easy. They feellike they're not making any benefits, right? If they're not sweaty, if they'renot out of breath, they feel like they weren't wowed in the workout, it doesn'tlook good on Strava or Garmin. So they have a hard time holding back, even whenyou're in that gray area where you just kind of crossed over, you have a littlebit of labored breathing. That's where a lot of athletes train, they feelcomfortable in what I call that gray area, which is no-man's land. It's notfast enough to make adaptations to your other energy systems, nor is it slowenough to make those key adaptations to our aerobic system.

Matt:Spot on. Your Zone 2 always feels like – if you look at those ranges, you'regoing to go like, “What?? That feels like I'm walking!” And for many people, itis actually walking. I remember when I was competing and training heavily, andI looked at my zones, and I was doing a lot of my “easy days” between like 6:30and 7:00 pace per mile. Then I looked at my Zone 2 and it was like 7:05 to8:00-minute pace, and I was like, “Wait what?” I'd been training in Zone 3 thiswhole time, which like you said Brady, is this no-man's land, this this deadzone, that really you aren't training aerobically and getting all the benefitsfrom the aerobic system. But I was training in Zone 3, which I was therebytaking on a whole bunch of extra stress from that session that was harder torecover from. So then all my other harder sessions that week I wasn't able togo hard enough and really get the most out of myself. So exactly as you said,Brady, you’ve got to have that be polarized, have it be very separate. There’s atime and place for the Zone 3 stuff, but for the most part it needs to bepolarized, so that you’re really building the anaerobic systems and buildingthe aerobic systems separately and very intentionally.

Brady:I say to all my athletes, “Well, you struggled with that second and that thirdinterval because you were kind of recovering in this gray area where you didn'tallow that heart rate to come down.” I say, “Your next interval is as good asyour last recovery.” Usually when I say it that way they go, “Oh, that makessense. If I go a little bit easier in between those intervals, I'm going to getmore output. I'm going to be able to hold on to that, my RPE is going to godown on those efforts. Yeah, that's really important, I'm going to feel betterthroughout that workout.”

Andrew:  That's a great reminder, Brady, and it'ssomething that took me a little while as a TriDot athlete to really sink in,that within my individual workout, keeping it easy in Zone 2 in between eachinterval is an investment in the next interval. It is ensuring you can do thepace you're supposed to do on interval 2, interval 3, interval 4 when the pacekicks up. I also started reminding myself on days where TriDot’s like, “Hey, gorun for 45 minutes in Zone 2 today!” And you're like, “Really, that's it?That's all I'm doing today?” Keeping that Zone 2, and keeping that easy, is aninvestment in my tough workout I have tomorrow. Because if I flirt with thatZone 2/3 line in that 45-minute easy run, “Okay, well tomorrow, TriDot’s goingto kick up the intensity, and I might not be truly ready for it if I didn't letZone 2 the day before be really easy.”

Matt:If I'm working with an athlete who doesn't have devices, like maybe they don'thave a watch – or particularly, in the case of Zone 2 training, if they don'thave an accurate heart rate monitor of some sort – then they very often, likealmost ten out of ten times, we'll find that they're training in Zone 3. Ithink maybe it's spawned out of this “no pain, no gain” kind of mindset thatpeople often have, where they feel like – exactly like you said before, Brady –if they're not working hard, they're not breaking a sweat, they're not panting,it’s too easy to have a conversation, then they feel like they're not havingthat pain or discomfort and suffering that is going to cause them to be better.But just need to wipe that out of the brains, because they're probably in thatZone 3 where they're not getting all the benefits that they should be.

Andrew:  That’s a question I see frequently frompeople that are coming into TriDot as new athletes. They want to know how theirheart rate zones are determined. Because TriDot gives you a heart rate zone.You might have Garmin telling you, “This is your heart rate zone. You mighthave Strava suggesting a heart rate zone. So Brady, talk to me specificallyabout the zones that TriDot gives you as an athlete, how were those generated?How were those determined by TriDot?

Brady:So we do something called a threshold test. On the run, it would be to go outand run a 5K. On the bike we do something called a functional threshold powertest, which is a 20-minute best effort. And what TriDot’s really looking for isthat average heart rate for that effort. But you want to make sure you get in agood warmup first. Because if you just line up and toe the line for your 5Ktime trial, and you're not warmed up, it is going to be a three or four-minutedelay of a heart rate lag. That's going to make your zones a little bit lower Iwant. I want to say I have the percentage.

Andrew:  Do it. Drop that percentage.

Brady:Yeah, so TriDot uses a range for calculating that. So say the athlete holds a172 heart rate, we’ll just say for that 5K test. That was their average heartrate after their warmup. Generally speaking, we're going to take 65% to about86% of that, and that's your Zone 2 heart rate.

Andrew:  And that's going to depend on somebody's age,gender, experience in the sport. There’s a bunch of things that will dictatewhere in that range TriDot pulls from, correct?

Brady:Correct. And then what that range is – the top end of my range is 150, but I'mnot trying to stay at 149 the whole time. I'm trying to stay in that sweet spotthat TriDot’s assigning me, which is about 136. Which for me, that's dependingon the day and the weather, a 7:20 to a 7:40 pace. That's about 70 or 80seconds slower than I'll actually race a marathon at.

Andrew:  Yeah, and there's some people listening thatthey wish that Zone 2 is their Zone 4 and Zone 5. You know, we're all atdifferent places, guys. We're all at different places in our fitness. I'm nottoo far off of Brady, but I am a little slower than Brady, that's for sure.

Brady:Keep in mind, Matt and I have been at this for years. We've been training foryears. I've been training since 2011, and really got on the Zone 2 bandwagon in2019, and that's when I saw my fitness really catapult.

Andrew:  Wow. As usual, I am the weakest athlete on the podcast today, but that's theway it's supposed to be. I should be picking the brains of stronger athletes.Matt, talk to me about this – are our zones the same across the swim, bike, andrun? Or are our heart rate zones different between the three disciplines, andwhy is either the case?

Matt:They do tend to be different. What most people will find is that their heartrate can get up higher during the run than it can during the other disciplines.On the run for instance, your threshold heart rate might be, let's say 172 likeBrady suggested. On the bike, you might find that your threshold heart rate is166, it's a bit lower. And you might also find out with your max heart ratethat when you are going super, super hard, your FTP test for instance or you'reall-out 5K, you might find that your max heart rate is higher in the run thanit is in the bike. That's typically what people will find. In the swim, it's alittle bit hard to measure heart rate in the swim, but it is generally lowerthan it is when you're running. I think it's roughly in the same ballparkapproximately of what you see on the bike.

Andrew:  This is just totally out of curiosity, Matt –what are the highest and lowest heart rate numbers you've ever measured foryourself during a workout? What's your lowest resting heart rate, what's yourhighest max heart you’ve ever seen?

Matt:The lowest resting heart that I think I've ever seen is 34 maybe?

Andrew:  Whoa!

Matt:Doctors think I'm dead. There's probably a lot of people listening that havevery low heart rates as well, and their doctors are probably also like, “Wait aminute, what's wrong with you?” “Oh, I’m just an endurance athlete.”  And then on the other side, the highest maxheart rate that I've actually recorded – and I know I must have had a higherone when I was running and racing in high school, because generally your maxheart rates and your threshold heart rates are higher when you're younger. Thenas you get older, your max heart rate and your threshold heart rates come down.A very rough approximation is 220 minus your age, and that measures your maxheart rate. So when I was competing in 2015, and at the end of a half-marathon,actually I was running up a hill very, very hard, I ended up hitting 197 at theend of the half marathon. So it was like a badge of honor almost, to be able tohit that high at that point in the race, and I’d never seen that number beforeon myself.

Andrew:  Yeah, I think I've seen 191, 192, and I thinkthe lowest I've ever seen is the mid-40s. It's interesting you're talking abouthow it changes as you age. There's a guy local to me in the Dallas/Fort Wortharea that I train with a lot, and there was one time we were going for a brickrun off the bike on Saturday. We were both supposed to keep it in Zone 2 perTriDot’s 20-minute Zone 2 off-the-bike. And he's like, “Okay, so you're 152,that's still Zone 2 for you. That’s like Zone 5 heart rate for me. Cool.” Buthe's a male in his 50s, and yeah, that just gives you a picture of howsignificantly it changes over time. Somebody two decades older than me, my Zone2 heart rate is his Zone 5 heart rate.

Matt:Some of it is age-dependent, but some of it is also just genetic. I know abunch of guys that barely ever go over one 110, 120, and they're notnecessarily older. They're like in their 40s, they're pretty young relative tomany, and yet their heart rate just doesn't get up that high. And the max heartrate I've ever seen is like 152, which for me is like everyday stuff.

Andrew:  Brady, highest number you've seen, lowestnumber you've seen.

Brady:So back in about 2013 I ran this race called the Yule Fest 5K, which was a PRfor me at the time. I had about a quarter-mile to go and I was pushing thepace, and I got to a point where I was pushing so hard it was almost likehitting the red line in a car. Where you hit this power band, and you’ve got somuch power, and then all of a sudden you start slowing down and you're like,“What's happening?” When I looked down at my watch, it was 192. Nowadays I canget it up to 186 on a good day, which 220 minus my age – I'll be 39 in twomonths – so the number we’ll go with is 181. I can still get it past 181, and Ican hold it there for quite some time. So a lot of that comes down to genetics,like Matt was saying, and I have coached folks that are younger than me andhave a lower max heart rate. Female athletes tend to have a higher heart rate,from what I've seen in my athletes, so that's why it's important to do these 5Ktests, to come up with those parameters, so they can be tailored to us. Andthat's what TriDot does.

Andrew:  I alluded a bit ago to how TriDot workouts,obviously there's some sessions that are all Zone 2, and there's some sessionswhere some of the workout is in Zone 2, and some of it is Zone 4, Zone 5,that's our quality intervals thrown in there. Now when we have a workout withintervals, where we're changing zones between 2, and 3, and 4, and 5, and 6 –is the purpose of that time in Zone 2 always just to rest you for yourinterval? Or are we still making certain physiological adaptations with that Zone2 in that session the way it is? Matt?

Matt:Yeah, not necessarily. So something like a fartlek, which means “speed play”,is where you're kind of toggling your speed from one zone to another, one zoneto another. And running in Zone 2 is harder than running in Zone 1. So if ithas you running very intentionally – TriDot is prescribing that you're runningin Zone 2 during your recoveries – that's intentional, run in Zone 2. Don't runin Zone 1, don't run in Zone 3, run in Zone 2. If you really wanted to justrecover as much as possible before your next interval, then you would be inZone 1. And sometimes that may be prescribed by TriDot, and it's veryintentional, it wants you to recover as much as possible so that you can reallytackle that next interval. But sometimes it's going to drop you down into Zone2, and that's also intentional, that's to continue to develop that aerobiccapacity there, and continue to layer in a certain type of stress there, ratherthan allowing you to have complete recovery.

Andrew:  Yeah, very interesting. Coach Brady, anythingto add there?

Brady:Yeah, kind of circling back to how we started this podcast with the speedyrecovery when you're doing that Zone 2 training. So talking about fartleks andgetting that heart rate down, the more you run in Zone 2, the faster it's goingto drop, the quicker you're going to recover. But then I'll tell my athletes,make sure they're doing those deep belly breaths, try to relax the body. You’veonly got a one-minute rest, if you’re talking fartleks or decreasing intervals.There's only one minute of rest, so use it wisely. Don't go to Zone 1, go toZone 2.  Try to relax. Do that “head,shoulders, knees, and toes” kind of check. Is everything relaxed? Those kindsof things will tend to get that heart rate to recover faster, then you'll be upand ready as soon as that buzzer goes off for that next interval.

Andrew:  Yeah, and my coach, John Mayfield, is alwaystelling me, “The amount of time your Zone 2 intervals are, in between the hardintervals, is prescribed for a reason.” It's not just haphazard so that you cancatch your breath and then go again. Like Brady just said, sometimes you mighthave one minute in between hard intervals, sometimes you have two, sometimesit's 30 seconds, sometimes it's 20 seconds. Sometimes, in a swim, you're juston the wall for ten seconds and then you're off again. Whatever it is, TriDothas it there for a reason. My tendency is, “You know what, I'm just going togive myself an extra minute today.” And my coach is always staying on me like,“Don't do that. Do not do that. You may have wanted that, there’s probably areason you wanted that.” Keep those rest intervals, those Zone 2 intervals, theduration they are for a reason. That's part of the prescription, and whatTriDot knows you need for the adaptations it's looking for. And thistransitions to my next question – some athletes are familiar with the somewhatfamous 80/20 rule of training. There's a book about it, there's people thatdevote everything they are as an athlete to 80/20 training. Literally today onthe I AM TriDot Facebook group, I saw an athlete ask about “Is TriDot a formof 80/20, or does TriDot follow something different?” So when you look at what80/20 training is, it does sound super similar to what TriDot does in terms ofkeeping athletes in Zone 2 a majority of time, and letting a certain percentageof your time, or in this case 20, be harder intervals. I see this question comeup frequently, and I know the answer to this and I think it's superinteresting, but I’m giving you guys the chance to talk about it. Is 80/20 in thesame vein as TriDot training, or are they different concepts? Matt Bach?

Matt:They're different, but they're the same. They're the same rough ballpark Iguess you could say. But 80/20 is a very general, cookie-cutter kind of idea.It's a decent rule of thumb, and there's a reason why there's a decent amountof overlap between what TriDot’s going to prescribe that you do and the 80/20rule, because physiologically it works. That said, 80/20 is very cookie-cutter,and you should not be doing 80/20 in one phase versus another, or depending onwho you are. Your age, your gender, your background, your time in the sport,your performance ability – all these different factors play into how much timeyou should actually be spending in a given zone, or Zone 2 versus other zones.So what you'll find with TriDot is that it's very much shifting all over theplace – kind of around the 80/20 focal point if you want to call it that –based off of all those other factors, so that it's truly optimizing yourtraining. If you just did 80/20 all the time, it wouldn't be optimized, itwould just be kind of cookie-cutter. It would be ignoring all those otherfactors of what training phase you're in and who you are, down to the core.

Brady:Yeah, 80/20, but it's really 80/10/10, where 10% is tough, and 10% is reallyhard.

Andrew:  Yeah, that's a great point as well. 80/20implies easy and hard, when there's a lot more nuance to the zones that are outthere.

Brady:A majority of training is going to be Zone 2, however you look at it. More thanhalf of your training is going to be in that Zone 2.

Matt:Yeah, a lot of warmups, cooldowns, rests in between. Some of your runs areentirely Zone 2, so it ends up amounting to quite a bit in most cases. But onething maybe to point out here is that you're never going to see the opposite.You're never going to see TriDot, or hopefully anybody, prescribing 80% of yourwork is intense, Zone 4, Zone 5, Zone 6 stuff, and 20% is Zone 2. If you'redoing that, you're doing it wrong. You're doing just too much intensity, andyou're going to fall apart or get injured.

Andrew:  Just as coaches – when you're working withyour athletes and they have that Zone 2 swim coming up, that Zone 2 bike comingup, that Zone 2 run coming up – what advice do you have for staying in Zone 2?Some people really struggle with this depending on the discipline, some peoplefind it easier. I find it easy for some disciplines and hard for others. Justwalk us through the things, the pointers you give your athletes – when you'resupposed to be in Zone 2, how to make sure you actually stay in Zone 2 acrosseach discipline. Coach Matt?

Matt:Yeah, so much to say on this one, and so many different tips on it. So I usedto not like Zone 2, for I think the same reason that many people don't like it,because you don't feel like you’re doing anything. But you need to just releasethat, and understand that you are doing the work that's necessary, you areintentionally doing Zone 2. Once I kind of accepted that, it liberated me in mymind in so many ways. I said, “Okay, I will do that.” It made it easier for me,because running or biking in Zone 2 is easier, perceived effort-wise, than itis to do that in Zone 3. So it allowed me to go out and actually enjoy, and notsuffer as much, and be in as much discomfort during my Zone 2 runs and rides.So that was nice, but then I also said, “Okay, well how can I fill that time?”I love running with people, I love riding with people, so I could go and do itin a social fashion. Where when you're in zone 2, by definition, you can beconversational. So it allows the time to pass much faster, those easy days goby easier. Another one is, this is the time to throw on the Netflix, or throwon the Ironman World Championship special broadcast from each year, or watch amovie. Or whatever you want to do, that's the time to do it. It's almostimpossible for me, and I think most people, if you're doing some sort ofstructured higher-intensity training, to watch something and actually payattention to what you're doing. It could also be your time to listen to theTriDot podcast, or do many, many other things. I've literally known people toeven read or scroll the socials while they're doing their Zone 2.

Andrew:  Or play chess!

Matt:Or play chess, yes! Whatever suits your fancy there, you can make that time goby very quickly and enjoyably, and even multitask during the Zone 2 stuff.Allow it, like relish the easy days, and relish them for a different reasonthan the hard days. They're very different.

Andrew:  Coach Brady, what are some of the tangibletidbits you give your athletes to help them stay in Zone 2?

Brady:I say let go of pace, let go of power. I have them all – with their Garmin orwatch or whatever device they're using – I say, “When it comes to Zone 2 days,don't look at your pace. Just have heart rate on the screen. Let go of pace.”Somebody said to me, “Oh, you're a runner. You guys are all looking miserableout there.” I'm like, “What do you mean we look miserable?” “Every runner I seelooks like they're suffering out there, and they're not happy.” I was like,“Well, they're definitely not doing it right, because they’re probably runningtoo hard in that gray area.” When I'm running Zone 2, I’ve got a big old smileon my face. Every once in a while I do what I call the “nose test”. Can youbreathe solely in and out of your nose for two minutes? That's a good test, anda good RPE test as well. If you can't breathe in and out of your nose for twominutes, chances are you're in that Zone 3, if you don't have a heart ratemonitor to tell you where you're at. I like to tell them, when it comes to that,“If you need a controlled environment, jump on a treadmill or get on the biketrainer, and put it on what I call “set and forget” mode, where you set thatpace for your heart rate, and you just camp right there. “Oh, but Coach, that'sway too boring!” Well, you can play around with your bike cadence, run cadence.You can think about your form, you can think about your knee drive. There's awhole slew of things that you can do while you're running in Zone 2 to takeaway from how much time is left on the clock. I truly enjoy it, that's where weget that “runner’s high”. Yes, it is a thing. Where you’re going to feel thatrunner’s high is a nice true Zone 2, where you're going to get done with thatrun and you're going to feel like you have so much more energy throughout theday. Even though you're using energy, you're actually creating more energy. Aswe go back to that mitochondria, the mitochondria becomes more efficient, itgives us more energy throughout our day-to-day.

Andrew:  When you have those Zone 2 workouts – andTriDot often in the session notes will even say this – you should finish thissession feeling like you have gas in the tank.

Matt:Some people will call Zone 2 your “all-day pace”.

Andrew:  Yeah. “I could do this all day!”

Matt:Yeah. You should feel like you should be able to go run or bike at Zone 2 for along, long time. Because by definition, you can. You should be able to do thatall day, basically.

Andrew:  Yeah. A couple things that really helped me –and Brady, you mentioned one with bringing the workouts inside – there'scertain days here in Texas where if I try to do a Zone 2 run or bike outside, Iam not going to be able to keep the heart rate in Zone 2, once the summer getsto summery. So the treadmill and the indoor trainer are just such a great wayto make sure you're keeping that easy effort easy. It's even easier on yourjoints, in both those scenarios. I'm a big fan of doing the Zone 2 stuff insidemyself, especially where I live in Texas. One of them I see frequently in the I AM TriDot Facebook groupis people talking about the swim. A lot of athletes really struggle withswimming in Zone 2. Because you're slowing down that swim pace, and if youhaven't developed the ability to swim at different paces, which takes time, alot of people their legs sink in Zone 2, so it makes Zone 2 harder than itshould be. Actually, when I was fairly new to TriDot, I probably spent thefirst couple of months with a pull buoy between my legs in Zone 2. That helpedme keep Zone 2 at the pace that it was supposed to be. Now, you don't want todo that too often or for too long, because that's going to form a bad habit.You need to get your technique, and you need to form the ability to swim inZone 2 without a pull buoy. But that did help me for a little bit as I was adjustingto the TriDot workouts when I was brand new to the platform myself. Even when Itake a break, if I take a long break from swimming and head back to the pool,I'll probably do that for a few sessions. I'll use the pool buoy a little bitmore often than I should until I get those gears and those speeds back in mysystem. And that's the case for the swim, bike, and run. If you're new toTriDot, you're new to structured training, you will learn over time what eachzone feels like and get better at running, biking, and swimming in differentzones. So just stick with it, have patients, and it's a skill you will developover time.

Twomore questions here in our main set before we kick it to Vanessa for our CoachCooldown Tip of the week. If I am walking in Zone 2 – you guys have mentionedalready that that's okay – but some folks, if they're doing that every singleworkout, and they're like, “I'm not even running, ever. I'm just walking allthe time.” So Matt, talk to me a little bit more about the Zone 2 walk. Is thatokay if we're doing that every single time? Should we over time get where thatis a run? Just harp on that a little bit extra for us today.

Matt:Yeah, that is perfectly fine. That is perfectly normal, and it is especiallynormal in cases where, let's say you're running up a hill. For a lot of people,even if you're sort of a middle-of-the-packer, you might find yourself walkingup a hill because it's a pretty steep hill and your heart rate is climbing intoZone 3. So you need to stop and walk, or even continue to walk, and stay inZone 2 as you're walking up that hill because the incline is so steep. Butthat's it, it is okay to be there. And one thing that you'll notice over timeis that as you use that aerobic system, as you are in Zone 2, your body willget better at using that aerobic system, and you'll get more and more efficientin Zone 2.  So that your walk will becomea jog, and your jog will become a run over time. You have to be very patient.It is not something for instant gratification. It is something that usuallytakes months, and sometimes even years, to really develop that aerobic system tothe point where you're running in Zone 2. But you will find that your pacerelationship to your heart rate is really interesting to watch over time. Soyou might run at a given pace under a certain set of conditions – I'm talkingabout heat, elevation, and humidity – and you're running, let's say a 9-minutepace in your Zone 2. But then over time you might find that that 9-minute pacecreeps down to more like 8:45-ish and 8:30-ish, an 8-minute pace, and your Zone2 will get faster and faster. One thing I actually do is run the same five-mileloop. I would precede it with a couple miles of warmup so I get my heart rateup and get things moving, and it's good if it's a relatively flat loop. So I'vepicked this flat five-mile loop – or it's more like an eight-mile loop, but themiddle five miles I would run – I would stay in Zone 2, let's say that averageheart rate was 142, and I would see what my pace was. Then I would do that sameexact loop, let's say two months later, after my aerobic system is in theorymore developed, and I'm running at a faster pace given the same heart rate. Iwould look at it and say, “Okay, I averaged 142 again for this five-mileportion, and look, I ran 12 seconds faster per mile. Wow, awesome.” It feltgood, and it was something else for me to think about too, during those Zone 2runs. Something to focus on and feel like I was appeasing my type-A personalitywithout having to go hard.

Andrew:  How many things in our sport are just thereto appease our type-A personality? There’s several there.  But that’s super helpful, Matt. And Brady, Iknow you are an excellent runner yourself, a multi-time Boston qualifier, Ibelieve. So as you're talking with athletes about Zone 2 running in particular,what role do you find run-walk to play in certain athlete’s plans, as they'rereally getting their legs under them in the run training?

Brady:Yeah, I use myself as an example often. I tell them, “I have to walk sometimes,too.” When I leave my house, I have two different directions I can go. I can goleft, or I can go right. If I go left, it's flat and easy. It heads down todowntown Newburyport, which is along the water. I could run ten miles and maybeget 200 feet of elevation gain. Or I could go right, where if I run ten miles,I'm looking at about 600, 650 feet of elevation gain. When I go right, I liketo play that game like, “Can I do this hilly loop just running?” Oftentimes no,I can't. Because there are some steep climbs, there are some long climbs whereI do have to walk a little bit. Usually I can feel it, as my heart rate gets upclose to 150, which is the top end of my threshold. I try to stay below 145when I'm going up a hill. If I see it hit 146 I start to walk, because chancesare the heart rate is going to catch up. “Yeah, sure enough it did, 148, 149.I'm glad I walked, because had I waited until it hit 148, I would have been151, and then kind of crossing over to that gray area.” We're also improvingour flexibility, our body’s ability to switch – not only during exercise, butday-in and day-out throughout our daily activities – being able to switchbetween glucose burning or fat burning throughout the day.

Matt:Metabolic flexibility.

Andrew:  Yeah! Metabolic flexibility! Hot dog.

Brady:Yes! So Zone 2 is important for not only exercise, but also in everyday life.If we have a strong mitochondria, that's what’s going to keep us healthiest.Strong, good, efficient mitochondria is going to help us fight off disease.I’ve got little kids, and knock on wood I haven't been sick where I've beenlaid out in over a year, and I attribute a lot of that to my Zone 2 training.If I bury myself, yeah, I'm going to be susceptible to illness. So I try toteach that to my athletes, “Hey, look at it in a larger picture. Don't look atjust the exercise. Look at it as part of your healthy living habits, too. We'regoing to get better there.” Athletes that are struggling, I always asked them,“Did you hydrate before your run?” Because hydration is going to play a role inwhat your heart rate does.

Andrew:  Good point.

Brady:I'll ask, “Did you drink coffee before you went out for a run?”

Andrew:  Yes. Yes, I did.

Brady:Because caffeine is going to boost our heart rate. “Oh, yeah, I had coffee andmaybe I had a half a cup of water.” “Well, there's your problem right there.”Get a good – I call it the internal bath, where the first thing I do in themorning as I wake up, I put a little pinch of the Himalayan sea salt in mywater. I drink that, and then I have another glass, so I've had 24 ounces. Igive myself 15 to 20 minutes, throw on my running clothes, lace up the shoes,and out the door I go. If I skip that and I wake up late, I have a harder timecontrolling that heart rate. So it's being intentional, giving yourself alittle bit of preparation time. I know we all want coffee as soon as we wakeup, but if we're early-morning exercisers, which I know I am, it just tastesthat much better when you finish. And that's something that you can lookforward to, is that first cup of coffee when you walk through the door.

Andrew:  Your example is spot-on. Again, I'm theslowest one on this podcast, but my 5K PR is 18:40. And when I was in 18:405K-er, there were times in my run training where I had to stop and walk. Soit's not a reflection on, “Aw, man, I'm a weaker runner, a slower runner orthis or that.” No. For the conditions you are running in right now, if yourheart rate, which is a true reflection of the effort your body is puttingforth, tells you, “You are not in Zone 2 anymore, you are now in Zone 3. Youneed to stop and walk and let it get down,” don't pause your Garmin, don'tpause your Strava. Put it on the record, it's okay. It's going to show peopleyou're doing the right training right. I'm not super in shape right now, butwhen I was at the top of my game, yeah – there were times out on the run whereI'd have to stop and walk to get my heart rate back down to Zone 2.

Matt: Putthe ego aside, it’s okay.

Andrew:  Put the ego aside, it’s okay.  It’s all right, you’re getting the gainsyou’re supposed to be getting.

Matt:Go slower to go faster.

Andrew:You’ve got to slow down to speed Matt, that's exactly right. And Brady, yousaid just a minute ago that you will slow yourself down before your heart rategets into Zone 3, not when it's flirting with the high end. Because we knowheart rate is a delayed response. As you slow down, it's going to take yourheart rate a minute to settle. So say somebody's Zone 2, the low end is 130,the high end is 150. Where in that zone should we try to keep ourselves in ourZone 2 efforts? Does our body perceive all Zone 2 as the same, just so long aswe're in there? Talk to me about that kind of strategy. At what point are weputting on the brakes, and how much should we be paying attention to whetherwe're in the low, middle, or high end of our Zone 2 range? That was ahorribly-worded question, but we're just going to leave it to show people thatAndrew isn't always silky smooth. Matt Bach, what do you think?

Matt:So generally I would say you want to just go squarely in the center there, havethat be your target. But that said, when you're very, very fatigued, you'refeeling pretty rough that day, don't feel bad about maybe doing your entireZone 2 run or ride on the low end of that zone. Use it as an opportunity to beon the low end there, you're still in your zone. I think as human beings, wekind of like to think discreetly, we like to think in black and white terms.You’re either in Zone 2 or you're not. It does matter where you are in thezone, and generally with my athletes I'm recommending that they're kind of inthe middle of that, but allowing them some of that flexibility and leeway to beon the lower end or the higher end on a given day, just as long as it's notchronically on the high end of that. Because then you're still in Zone 2, butyou're kind of flirting with Zone 3, and it maybe is giving some of that unduestress that you just don't need, and you're not necessarily working youraerobic system the way that you should be.

Brady:So technically speaking, Zone 2 is having lactate between 1.7 and 1.9millimoles. That would be if we were to test it within a lab, but we're using a5K test and FTP test to come up with those ranges. So I tell my athletes, “Keepthat in mind, we're not testing this in a lab. It's a range, so I want you morein the middle of that range.” Where it's okay to be in that upper end is,“Yeah, if you're going up a hill. But do your best, walk a little bit, let goof the Strava results and all that stuff, because we're focused on race day.”Just knowing that it's a calculation that we're coming up with, if you want tomaximize your Zone 2, it should be somewhere kind of in the middle of that.

Matt:One thing that I want to mention is that your heart rate – and I think we sortof mildly mentioned on a couple different occasions here, is that conditionsimpact your heart rate. And not just conditions, but there's a plethora offactors that impact your heart rate. If you're super tired, your heart ratemight be different than what it normally is. Especially after you finish arace, you might notice that it's hard to get your heart rate up, actually. Thensometimes it might be super high and you just can't get it down. So sometimes arace effort like that might whack out your heart rate. Conditions liketemperature and humidity will have a direct and sometimes significant impact onyour heart rate. So if you're doing a Zone 2 run outside, and it's 100° out andhumid, your heart rate is going to be elevated relative to what it normallywould be. So your pace will thereby therefore be slower in those types ofconditions, sometimes significantly. Like tens of seconds per mile slower,sometimes a minute maybe per mile slower, relative to what might be consideredideal conditions of let's say 50° and not very humid, and at sea level and allthat. Then the conditions are conducive to you having a faster pace relative tothe Zone 2 heart rate.

Andrew:Yeah, great point, Matt. Another thing that can affect it is your lifestylestress. If work or family is just really stressing you out, that can impactyour heart rate in your workouts. You could be about to be sick and not evenknow yet. Your body is starting to fight something that you don't even know youhave, and you're like, “Man, why am I really struggling to keep my heart ratedown on today's workout?” Then two days later, “Oh man, I had the flu.” Butthere are, in TriDot, workouts where heart rate doesn't matter. There arecertain workouts where we pay attention to our heart rate, and heart rate isthe golden rule, and there's workouts where we don't even think about our heartrate. Close us down today with a breakdown of how we know the difference.

Matt:The primary metric is what you want to be paying attention to on any givenworkout. And that primary metric, you might see a little heart. If it is aheart, then it means you should be paying attention to your heart rate andstaying in your Zone 2  heart rate orwhatever zone it is. If you see a little lightning bolt, it is referring toyour power. Whether that be on the bike, which is a more common place to havepower, or on the run, which there are things like Stryd foot pods. In the swimit's generally not going to be referring to heart rate at all, because heartrate is very difficult to look at or capture during a swim. And what you'llnotice is that generally when you're doing an entire workout session that isentirely Zone 2 – let's say it's a long run on the weekend – then it'll usuallybe based on heart rate. The primary metric will really be the heart rate, andthat's why we talked about that so much today. If it's calling for Zone 2 bypace, which is a little clock that you would see – that's the other primarymetric that you could need to use – then you want to be focusing on pace, andit doesn't matter what your heart is. Your heart rate might have climbed intoZone 3, or it might still be down in Zone 1. But your pace, if it's in Zone 2, thenyou will get the appropriate credit for the session, your TrainX score willreflect that. But you’ll also be working the correct systems, doing the righttraining right. You’ll be doing the session how it's intended to be done.

Cool down theme: Great set everyone! Let’s cool down.

Vanessa Ronksley: Hi friends! I'm Vanessa, your AverageTriathlete with Elite-Level Enthusiasm! Joining us today for the Coach CooldownTip is our superhuman TriDot Coach, Jason Verbracken, more fondly known asVerbie.  If you follow him on thesocials, you may notice that he likes the extreme side of things. Full-distancetris are child's play, so extreme races are more up his alley. Verbie recentlybecame a HURT100 finisher. He is a Norseman XTri Black Shirt finisher, and alsoplaced second overall in the Starvation XTri. These kinds of results onlyhappen because of dedication, consistency, and the heart of a lion. Not onlydoes he exercise these traits in triathlon, but in his 25-year career withPepsi as an account manager, and with his wife and two kids. Welcome to thecooldown, Verbie!

Jason:Hello Vanessa! Hopefully I have as much enthusiasm as you do for this!

Vanessa:Before you started dabbling in the sport of triathlon, you were full on intomotocross racing with your son, and you still train professional racers today.Tell us a little bit about this.

Jason:Yes, well, I've always loved motorcycles. Anything with an engine where you cango fast. Snowmobiles, four-wheelers, all that fun stuff. So when he was five,that darn Santa Clause brought him a motorcycle, and we started riding togetherand going to the track. Then they had a kids’ track, and then some parentswere, “Hey, we have kids’ races the next day, and there's beginner classes!” Itstarted, and then all of a sudden it just was a snowball that turned into ahuge blizzard. But we traveled the whole world. We loaded up the motorhome andtrailer and drove across the country, so we got to see many states, have manycrazy adventures on the road. He raced for Team USA and won gold over inBelgium, we won silver in Bulgaria. It was an amazing time that I wouldn'tchange for a second, just the adventures and the journeys we got to do as afamily. Gosh, what was that, it must have been 15 years together doing it.

Vanessa:Wow. Well, thank you to Santa Clause! Now, I imagine that your tip today issomething that applies equally to motocross and to triathlon. What do you havefor us today?

Jason:My tip today is knowing your race course. That can help you out so muchmentally, physically, all around, knowing where the hills are going to be,knowing where aid stations are going to be. When you get to a new course,especially when you're going long, you're getting tired. If you've been to thatcourse before, and have maybe just pre-ran the last section, or biked the lastfew miles, then when all of a sudden you recognize something, that, “Oh, I knowwhere I am! Okay yeah, I only have this one little hill to climb, and then it'sdownhill to the finish.” That just can change your spirits completely whenyou're racing, just that knowing where you are is huge.

Vanessa:Yeah, I fully agree with you on this one, it makes a big difference. If youhave the opportunity to go on the race course, arrive a little bit early beforethe race and maybe drive a portion of the race course. Or even if you don'thave access to do that, some of the race courses are available on FulGaz, soyou can actually ride some of those race courses and just get an idea of somelandmarks that will help you with those visual cues. Like you said, it's amental game. Even in professional sports, a lot of these sports psychologistsare really big into visualization, and incorporating that into the practice ofall athletes. And part of that visualization is knowing exactly what yoursurroundings are going to be.

Jason:Oh, totally. Like, I just went and did HURT100. Well, I was lucky enough to flyout to Hawaii in November, so a couple months before. It's five 20-mile loops,so I got to run the race course and know where things were, know what theterrain was like. After doing that, and seeing how steep some stuff was, andhow steep going back downhill was, I'm like, “Okay, I'm still far enough out,there's a few things I want to change in my training regimen, to add some morestrength training so the legs are stronger.” And I had never used running polesbefore, but everywhere I read said that's going to help take a lot of stressoff the legs. So I incorporated training with running poles, and getting readyto use those on that course. Then just knowing the different landmarks, like wetalked about, and knowing kind of where I was. I even took pictures, and one ofthe pictures was of a really rough section, and that was my screensaver on myphone. So every time I’d go on to use my phone, I would see that picture, and Iwould start visualizing the course. “Okay, this is where I’ll be at that time.” Going through those everyday, multiple times a day, seeing that part of the course and just kind ofrunning through it in my head – when I got back out there, it was like I haddone these sections, and had gone through it so many times in my head, I feltlike it wasn't the first time I was doing the race. I felt like a veteran beingthere, like I've ran through it so many times my brain didn't know thedifference.

Vanessa:That's incredible. I love that tip of putting that portion of the race courseon your phone. I'm very much doing the same thing in preparation for the Nice,France bike course. I have the elevation profile where I can see it everysingle day, just to prepare myself. Like, “This is how long you're going to beclimbing, and this is how steep it's going to be.” Although I don't see thecourse itself on that elevation profile, it's just a constant reminder thatit's going to be difficult and hard. And like you said, you maybe don’tvisualize the actual setting, but you can also visualize how you're going tofeel when you get to this landmark, or how you're going to overcome some ofthose mental barriers that you might have at that very difficult part. You canstart to visualize just how you're going to deal with it. I think that's reallyawesome.

Jason:Yeah, and then by the time you get over there, you've gone through it so manytimes in your head, that some of that nervousness is just gone. And even whenyou're out on the course, and it may be hard, but you're like, “I know what'scoming up.” I'm sure you're biking the course too, on your training rides, soyou're going to be like, “Oh, I already know this. I already know how hard Ineed to push. I've got this. I've gone through this in my head, I've riddenthis on the trainer. It's just another day of riding for me.”

Outro:Thanks for joining us. Make sure to subscribe and share the TriDot podcast withyour triathlon crew. For more great tri content and community, connect with uson Facebook, YouTube, and Instagram. Ready to optimize your training? Head totridot.com and start your free trial today! TriDot – the obvious and automaticchoice for triathlon training.

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