Intro: This is the TriDot podcast. TriDot uses your training data and genetic profile, combined with predictive analytics and artificial intelligence to optimize your training, giving you better results in less time with fewer injuries. Our podcast is here to educate, inspire, and entertain. We’ll talk all things triathlon with expert coaches and special guests. Join the conversation and let’s improve together.

Andrew Harley: Hey folks! Welcome to the show. Today we are talking about ultra-distance triathlon. If you plan on racing an ultra someday or even if you can’t imagine going that far, hang on for the wild ride today as this one will be filled with engaging tales and triathlon wisdom from three athletes who are well acquainted with the ultra tri scene. Joining us for this conversation is newly minted Ultraman finisher, TriDot coach Jason Verbracken. Jason lives in San Diego, California where he works as a Pepsi sales rep in addition to coaching TriDot athletes. He’s been racing tris for six years racking up nine Ironman and five Xtreme triathlon finish lines so far. Better known as Verbie, Jason finished Ultraman Arizona just a few weekends ago. Verbie, congrats on the Ultraman finish line my friend!

Jason Verbracken: Thank you Andrew. I appreciate it. I’m glad to be back on the podcast.

Andrew: We’re also joined today by TriDot coach Kurt Madden. Kurt is a pioneer of the sport and a nine-time Kona finisher. He has three top ten finishes at the Ironman World Championships. He is a three-time North American Age Group Champion and is a four-time #1 world ranked age group Ironman All World Athlete. And as if 140.6 miles isn’t enough, he is also a two-time Ultraman World Champion and in 2019 was inducted into the Ultraman World Championships Hall of Fame. Coach Kurt Madden, which do you get more excited to talk about, Kona or Ultraman?

Kurt Madden: Andrew, you were going to make this easy for me and you just threw the hail Mary right out of the gate.

Andrew: Tough question straight out the gate.

Kurt: It depends which way the trade winds are blowing.

Andrew: Last, but not least with us today is Ande Wegner. Ande is a TriDot Ambassador and three time Ironman finisher from Chicago, Illinois. Ande works as a veterinary medical director during the week and then can be found racing or crewing other athletes seeking their own tough finish line. She has crewed for her coach, Kurt Madden, at the Ultraman World Championships and more recently she led the crew team helping Jason Verbracken to the Ultraman Arizona finish line. Ande herself was second overall in the entire field at the Triple Anvil Ultra Triathlon. So Ande, welcome to your first TriDot podcast episode.

Ande Wegner: Thanks Andrew! Super excited to be here.

Andrew: I’m Andrew the Average Triathlete, Voice of the People and Captain of the Middle of the Pack. As always we'll roll through our warm up question, settle in for our main set conversation, and then wind things down with our cool down. Lots of good stuff, let's get to it!

Warm up theme: Time to warm up! Let’s get moving.

Andrew: Whether the training session is long and slow, short and fast, or anything in between, triathlon training can challenge you in all sorts of ways. Some days are nice and easy and some days you work yourself pretty good and some days you just finish totally spent. Kurt, Verbie, Ande, from all the training sessions you have put in during your tri journeys, what would you say was the most difficult training session that you have ever endured? And Ande, it’s your first time on the show so I’m going to throw this your way first. What is this answer for you?

Ande: Oooo, super excited. So I would say mine would be during my training for the Triple Anvil in 2018. Coach Kurt is really big on specificity and because my race ran around the clock one of my longest rides was scheduled to start at midnight. So fortunately for me there’s a neighborhood nearby that has really well-lit streets and then my better half, Rick, and my buddy, Glen, agreed to join me for the ride. So we started at midnight, rode through the night, got a couple funny looks from the local police patrol.

Andrew: Who are these people and why are they out here?

Ande: Pretty much, yeah. But it was actually a really good time and it was a really excellent way to test my bike lights and my bike handling skills in the dark. So we rode for a total of eight hours, had a short off the bike run, and then we went to breakfast.

Andrew: That worked out pretty well. So on to Coach Kurt Madden. Kurt from all the training hours you’ve put in, does any one session come to mind as just the most difficult session you’ve endured?

Kurt: After a while they all kind of blend together so…

Andrew: Okay.

Kurt: If I try to honestly look back over my shoulder and say was there one that truly stood out and as I really, really just continue to reflect on it, it was really tough. There was maybe one in swim, there’s one in bike, but I think the one in run– Back in the day, believe it or not, I had some wild ideas and passed it on to Ande and Jason so they have that and that’s good when I coach them. But I think when I look at running, probably the toughest one I ever did is I ran 100 miles around the track.

Andrew: Ohh my goodness.

Kurt: And you might say, “Well, why would you do that?”

Andrew: Why would you do that?

Kurt: Well that’s what Ultraman and Ironman people do. It was just a real challenge so I was fortunate that I was a high school science teacher and the kids there, the ASB, they got this wild idea like, “Hey, we’re just going to ride bikes around the track, trikes, for 24 hours.” So I got that idea in my head and I go, I’m not going to ride a bike for 24 hours, but I said, “Hey what if I just run like 100 miles?” and they said, “Are you serious?”

Andrew: You can do that?

Kurt: And I said, “Yeah, I’m really serious. I’m just going to run for… You know, I’ll finish it.” And they said, “Great!” So we started at like 10:00 in the morning and you know high school kids, everything is fun for like the first two hours and then all of a sudden it’s sunset and it’s like, well there’s three people out on the track and by 10:00 all you heard was high school kids just sleeping and I just kept running. So low and behold I went 100 miles in 17 hours and that was a breakthrough for me. I didn’t think I could ever do that, but I think…

Andrew: My goodness.

Kurt: …that really positioned me to say that that mental stamina it just really gives you that inner confidence to say, “Okay, checked that box so I’m good for now.”

Andrew: So kicking this question over your way, Verbie, what is the most difficult training session you feel like you’ve endured?

Jason: Well, anytime you’re on the trainer 3+ hours is miserable.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jason: Go somewhere else. But the biggest one I remember that sticks out the most, my coach; I won’t say who it was– Kurt, sent me to Big Bear to do high altitude training and get some elevation in…

Andrew: Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Jason: …and he goes “If you need some extra elevation at the end drop down this backside road and you’ll hit this little town and turn around and climb back up.” Okay. I had about an hour left and he said it was not that far down.

Andrew: He made it sound pretty easy. Pretty simple. Pretty straight forward.

Jason: It sounded simple. I had two bottles of water. I’m like “That will last me two hours if worse comes to worse.” Well, I started dropping down this hill and it was steep and I’m already probably 5+ hours into the ride and this was steep. I was flying. I’m like, “This isn’t going to be fun coming back.” It was some tight switchbacks. Like I see signs, 15% grade. You know, trucks go 5 miles an hour because it’s so crazy. Signs like that. I’m like, “This isn’t going to be good.” And as I kept going down, it kept getting hotter and hotter.

Andrew: Sure.

Jason: I realized I was dropping down into the desert and I didn’t even make it to the town. I was like, “Abort going to the town. We need to turn around now!” And I turned around and started climbing and it was so hot and there was no shade. I think my Garmin hit like 118 it said on it. I was dying. I had to get off the bike a couple times and trying to use my tri bike as shade to kind of shade myself for a little bit. Those two bottles of water lasted probably 30 minutes and I was hoping a car was like, “Oh this poor guy and we’re going to pull over and give him a ride.”

Andrew: Yeah.

Jason: Nobody did. They just waved. I’d get back on my bike and start climbing again and I was dead. When I got to the top I felt the biggest relief. I was supposed to go on a run and I’m like, “Ain’t no way this guy is running!” I was spent, Andrew like never before. I literally thought he sent me down there to die.

Andrew: You know, at least you’re not dramatic about it.

Jason: Yeah. All true.

Andrew: The things our coaches have us do to be ready to go.

Main set theme: On to the main set. Going in 3…2…1…

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Andrew: The full distance Ironman triathlon may have put the sport on the map, but it is not the most grueling endurance challenge in the swim, bike, and run catalog. That distinction goes to ultra classified races. Ultra races are typically three day, multisport races asking competitors to go “to infinity and beyond” to reach the finish line. Today, Kurt, Verbie, and Ande will tell us the tales from their own ultra adventures and what they’ve learned along the way to becoming an Ultraman. Ande, Verbie, Kurt, I had been a triathlete I think for years before I even ever heard that ultra was the thing. Many average triathletes are probably out there somewhere living their lives with zero clue that fellow triathletes are racing these distances. So for each of you, when did you first learn about ultra and what was your reaction to its existence? And maybe Kurt we’ll have you go first since you’ve been in the ultra scene longer than the rest of us.

Kurt: Yeah, you know we go back to 1983 and that was a whole different world back then and I was just– I am just so, so fortunate. I think I was at the right place at the right time and the stars, the planets just lined up literally. At that time I was a pro. I was sponsored by Nike. I was kind of living the dream and things were good. It was 1983 and all of a sudden this race just kind of appeared like I’m thinking, “Wait a minute?” This is like at Thanksgiving. We had the World Championship in October. How great would it be just to kind of parlay that fitness into this event.” And back then it was Kurt Tyler and Conrad Will. Those were two people that were the original founders of the Ultraman. You know, with Tinley and with Melina, they were always throwing something out like, “Hey, this has got your name all over it.” They kept saying that so it was just like anything. It was kind of like a challenge idea type thing.

Andrew: Yeah.

Kurt: The season went really, really well. I was just really pleased at my finish at Kona. I was very, very fortunate to finish 10th overall and I figured what the heck. I’ll be that pioneer. I’ll go ahead and tackle this. Then kind of the mystique of like, what would it be like to race around the entire Big Island? It could be a very humbling experience so low and behold I’m going from the World Championship to flying right back home to going right back to Kona right around Thanksgiving to say, “You know what? This is our maiden voyage here.” And little did I– It sounds like Ironman– little did I realize that we go back to that race and it was just a hoot and a half and all of a sudden now we’re sitting here in 2022 and I’ve got Ande and I’ve got Verbie. It’s like a whole new generation.

Andrew: Yeah.

Kurt: This thing has just gotten worse in a good way and that’s how I learned about it and I think I just cherish everything about Ultraman, the Ohana, the vibe, the feeling and just so honored to help out Ande and help out Jason in his recent finish over in Arizona.

Andrew: So Ande, for you, your finish came before Verbie’s so we’ll go to you next. At what point in your tri journey did you become aware of ultra-distance racing?

Ande: So I didn’t know about it right away either. I started racing triathlon in the early 2000’s and it wasn’t until 2013 that I was made aware of the ultra-distance events. I was actually at an adventure race and I met a guy by the name of Xavier who is now a really close friend of mine and we kind of got to chit chatting and found out we were both triathletes as well and he said, “Oh my gosh! Have you ever heard of the Anvil?” and I said, “No. What’s the Anvil?” And he proceeded to tell me that it was an ultra triathlon race. I said, “Wait a minute? You mean there’s more? There’s more than an Ironman?” Because I actually had decided in 2013 that I was going to do my first Ironman that year. So as he was continuing to describe it I just knew immediately this is for me. I had already been through multi-day events with 30+ hour timelines and what not in adventure racing at other endurance events so it was just kind of an obvious choice for myself. I just love the long game so I kind of became a bit obsessed with trying to find out a way to make this happen. And yeah. It was just a natural progression.

Andrew: Now Jason, for you, you’ve been on the podcast before talking about Xtreme tri and you came into the sport, you pretty quickly rose to doing the Ironman distance at Ironman Arizona back in the day and then from there you kind of started getting really into Xtreme tri. You’ve done several of those at this point. So what made you want to make the leap into doing Ultraman?

Jason: Who said I made the leap to want to do it? I still don’t know if I want to do it even after finishing.

Andrew: You were compelled to do it!

Jason: Yes! That’s it. No, when I first heard about it probably the same time I was looking into the Xtremes. I honestly think I Googled “world’s hardest triathlons” and I saw these regular hard IRONMANs, the Xtremes, and then the Ultraman and I remember just glancing at it and going “Who would do that?! A double marathon at the end and the swim and the bike.” It literally was like there’s no way. People who do this are out of their minds and I am not one of those people.

Andrew: Until you were one of those people.

Jason: Until– yeah and then it just… I don’t know if that little seed got stuck in my brain somewhere and planted and it slowly after doing the Xtremes and seeing how far I can push my body and going, “Wow.” Then all of a sudden it started going, “I wonder if I could do something that long?” Then alright and that seed started growing and then luckily I have an amazing coach that was one of the founding fathers of it like he said and many championships doing that race. He was like, “That’s a great idea!” He was all aboard with me signing up so that’s how it all came about.

Andrew: So ultra has come up here and there on other podcast episodes, but we’ve never exclusively talked about it on the show until today. So, can you guys just kind of catch us up to speed and just educate us. What does the ultra distance entail and what are the differences between the different series? Like there’s Ultraman, Ande you mentioned the Anvil. So what is ultra?

Ande: Ultra triathlon events are anything that are above and beyond Iron distance events. They vary in their format. So Ultraman, for example, which Verbie and Kurt are now well versed in, is a standard three day event where there are a 6.2 mile swim and a roughly 90 mile bike on day one. Then they get to take a little break and then day two there’s a roughly 170-ish mile bike for day two and then day three is the double marathon. So again, that’s over a span of three days.

Andrew: And you have 12 hours each day, right? A time limit of 12 hours per day.

Ande: I believe that is correct. Right boys? Yeah. Okay. So the Anvil by contrast runs continuously. So once the starting gun begins your time is ticking. So you have a certain set of hours depending on what distance you are completing. Again, I did a three times distance Iron event. So I had 50 hours or less to complete it. Whether you want to take a break to eat, go to the bathroom, take a break to sleep, the clock is ticking.

Andrew: Okay.

Ande: So if you want to be competitive or what not, a lot of people really don’t sleep all that much.

Andrew: Okay.

Ande: Including myself.

Andrew: Is there one Ultraman and one Anvil per year? Are they both series where there’s just multiple ones? How many different ultra races are on the calendar on any given year?

Ande: They’re all over the world.

Andrew: Okay.

Ande: You’ll find them everywhere. The Anvil series themselves, there’s one in Florida, there’s one in Virginia, there’s one in Washington State. You’ll find them all over Europe. The ultra scene tends to be a bigger deal over in Europe as compared to the United States, but it is starting to catch on here a little bit more which I’m very excited about. But, yeah. There’s multiple events all over the place. Same with Ultraman. There’s Florida, Arizona, there’s one in Canada, and then naturally the World Championships in Hawaii.

Andrew: All three of you use TriDot to prepare for ultra events. So Kurt with your experience you’ve coached many athletes, Ande and Verbie included to complete this distance. So Kurt, what does the training for ultra look like with TriDot?

Kurt: Well let me give you my perspective and let’s maybe slide over to Jason too as the athlete, even Ande too because we’ve used TriDot with her too and she was very successful. So really you take, for example Jason, you take kind of his profile and you put in an A race there and it starts actually producing some workouts. But really as Ande said what we really try to do is we try to create some specificity and I think that is really, really important and to keep it at a higher level. Think of a three day race and you’re literally doing buildups over 16 weeks in a three day format that you want to do a long swim on Friday. If you can get in a bike, that’s great. Get in a long bike ride on Saturday and then do that long run on Sunday. That’s the real short version on that, but again it’s the specificity and I think really what went Jason’s way in a very, very good way was he was able to get out on that course. He was able to go there weeks in advance and I said, “Jason, the most important thing, if anything”– and for many people it might sound somewhat bizarre or out of reach. I said, “Jason just get really familiar with the last marathon.” Because I found in doing the Ultraman on the Big Island four times, that was the number one thing that I would always do. Someone would take me out 15 miles, I’ll run back into Kona. Then people were like, “That guy is literally crazy.” Well you know what? They might have thought that Jason was in a Saguaro cactus out there. No, that was Jason Verbie training.

Andrew: Yeah.

Kurt: I tell you, during the race that was money in the bank. He just clicked to a whole different switch to say, “You know what? I’ve been here before.” And that gives him that piece of mind and that confidence. So that’s what I did and same thing as Ande has touched on with her race. So you have to do that, but it’s that inner play of you’re trying to do these race rehearsals, you’re trying to not kill the athlete or put her to the point where they’re super fatigued, but build that mental stamina, that physical stamina, and that specificity so when they get into their races it is literally just autopilot.

Andrew: I think that’s what’s interesting when you talk about how– I’ve never considered before that for ultra it’s a three day event. You swim on day one, you bike largely on day two, and you run largely on day three and that’s what a normal training weekend looks like. If you have the normal TriDot schedule, if you haven’t tweaked your schedule at all you swim on Friday, you have a long bike ride on Saturday, and you have a solid run on Sunday. So yeah, I guess you just build all three of those out and get ready. So Verbie, for you what was the training like getting ready for Ultraman Arizona compared to other events you’ve had to get ready for using TriDot?

Jason: You know, it wasn’t that much different, but like Kurt said it was more specific; specified on that being more like race day. So like we were just talking about. The hours obviously I want to say for my Xtremes I’m around kind of peaking 17-18-ish where this I was bumped up to about 22-23 was one of the top weeks.

Andrew: Okay.

Jason: So obviously a little more hours in there, but again going longer distances that’s normal. My Monday through Thursdays were pretty much the same.

Andrew: Okay.

Jason: You know, your hour swim, your hour threshold bike, or Thursday zone 2 bike. Everyday pretty much was two workouts though. I was swimming probably five days a week so there were a lot of swims in there, but a lot of those were just recovery swims.

Andrew: Yep.

Jason: The zone 2 just longer distance swims. Then the biggest thing like Kurt was saying was that Friday, Saturday, Sunday to match the race conditions. So again, my swims would go anywhere from an hour on Friday to two, two and a half hours and then get home and get on the bike for an hour to two hours. Then Saturday was the long bike. The bonus part– there’s no off the bike run so I didn’t have to do off the bike training sessions.

Andrew: You get to sleep first.

Jason: Yeah. Once the bike was done it wasn’t hop on and do a quick transition. It was, alright let’s go get some food. Yeah, there was no…

Andrew: Hey that’s true.

Jason: Yeah it’s great. There’s a bonus for training for an Ultraman. You don’t have to do bricks.

Andrew: Yeah, Verbie hasn’t run off the bike in months.

Jason: I haven’t. It’s true.

Andrew: So for those long training sessions, for myself and plenty of other athletes in our audience here, the ceiling of interest for a lot of athletes is 70.3 to 140.6 and even in that there are a good number of long training sessions that help build out our stamina for race day. So for the three of you from all the hours that you’ve put into training for ultra, what tips can you give our audience just in terms of how to mentally and physically get yourself through those longer training sessions? Verbie, you’re very close to those. You just got through a whole training block of those so we’ll go to you first here.

Jason: My biggest things– They’re going to be miserable, right? They’re meant to hurt. They’re meant to build that mental toughness. My biggest thing is I always try to remember I signed up for this. It’s my own fault.

Andrew: My wife reminded me of that anytime I complained going out for a long ride. Yep. She’d be like, “You chose to do this. No one’s making you do this.”

Jason: Yeah. Yeah and me, I paid for it. I worked hard for my money so I pay for it, I want to get the most out of my money too. But just remembering the why. Why I’m there. Knowing that this hard work I put in now is going to pay off dividends come race day. Yes, I’m going to be miserable, but I can always go back and go, “Remember that training session? Oh yeah. We did push through that. We did make that. Oh yeah.” And that helps so much come race day. Then another big thing I know for me training for this was having friends join me at different parts of the sessions. Especially when you’re going long.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jason: You’ll find another person is all of a sudden going to be like “Oh, I’m training for Ultraman too. Let’s link up and we can spend all our time together.” Most people are sprints and Ironman so they’re definitely going shorter. So like me I had them meet me at this time when I’m on the back half of a session when I know I’m going to be hurting and then I’ve got somebody fresh coming in with all this energy and it gives you that extra little, “Oh, alright. Let’s get going.” and trying to keep up with him. Kind of a little carrot for you to chase or even just you feed off their energy because they’re excited, they’re starting their workout and it just helps out mentally a lot.

Andrew: Yep, no I definitely agree with that. I had TriDot coach Ryan Tibball, TriDot athlete, Ryan Fuel, two guys that live in the same area I do join me for a couple of my race rehearsals for Ironman Waco and that was a huge help. A huge blessing to have them with me. Verbie, Ande, I know both of you have joined the Saturday morning TriDot Zwift ride a few times and when you have a six hour training day you get to join people for an hour and a half for that ride it still kind of helps for a little bit. So Ande for you, what are some of the tangible tips you would give people for just wrapping their heads and their bodies around those long training days?

Ande: Well, just to play off of what Verbie said, I fully believe that having the right frame of mind going into each session really makes the difference between merely surviving it and then thriving within it.

Andrew: Yeah.

Ande: I mean physical ability to endure something of that distance is important, but the mental fortitude, that’s even more important and in my career I’ve witnessed physically strong athletes just completely crumble and fall apart mentally after being on the course for that long. So everybody is going to have dark moments. You just have to acknowledge that those moments are transient and know how to push beyond them and that’s really what drives success in all of this. And just like Verbie said, misery loves company. So if you can find some friends that are willing to join in the suffer fest for a little bit it certainly does help with training.

Andrew: I certainly enjoyed from the weekend that you guys were just posting from Verbie’s account, from your own social media accounts while he was racing Ultraman Arizona, I was enjoying the posts that you guys were putting up and just video of Vegan Dan running down the road with Verbie, Ande jogging beside him on the bike to make sure he had a solid handoff on his bottles. It was just really fun watching the team in action around him. So we’ll hear some race stories from all three of you in just a bit, but the crewing or sherpaing for these is an experience in and of itself. So what does the weekend look like for the ultra crew? Ande, you kind of led the crew in Ultraman Arizona for Verbie so just walk us through. What does the weekend look like for crew members?

Ande: Well, in a nutshell it’s like herding cats except the cats are on bikes and you’re chasing them in a van.

Andrew: Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah.

Ande: Seriously though, like Kurt alluded to the racer’s crew is their lifeline. So it helps when the crew members have a little knowledge of what the ultra events entail and the main goal of the crew is to allow the racer to focus on executing the race so they don’t have to worry about too much of the logistics that are involved. Our job as the crew is to make sure the racer is at the start locations on time, warmed up and fueled properly, and in the right frame of mind to race. Then once the race begins the crew needs to make sure that the racer is getting the nutrition they need, ensuring the racer doesn’t go off course which we made sure of that multiple times during the Ultraman event in Arizona. Then just encouraging the racer through those dark moments because we all know that there are going to be those times and the goal is to try to get them back in that right mental frame of mind to keep pushing. Then after every stage we help to get the racer changed, massaged, fed, and in bed so they’re just ready to go the next day.

Andrew: So what does the– It sounds like there’s almost a lot of hurry up and wait where you’re trying to meet your athlete at certain points on the course. You’re trying to get them what they need throughout the day. So what does that team aspect kind of look like in the van as you’re just kind of traveling through the course all day long just kind of taking care of your athlete?

Ande: At the Ultraman, yes. It’s a very long, drawn out course so we’re basically leapfrogging them in a vehicle. So we allow them to ride ahead a little bit and then we pass them in the van and then set up and stage for them to pass us back. Generally we try to have nutrition ready, have extra fuel ready just in case. If they need any medication like “Hey I’m hurting. I need to have X, Y, Z to help get me through.” We had leg cramp cream for Verbie at one point. We were using stuff to help keep him cool at one point. Shout out to Cool and Fit for that. That tends to work really well at keeping your body temperature down. But yeah. It’s really just a giant game of leapfrog once the bike begins and we’re chasing him down, he’s chasing us down, vice versa and we’re just making sure that he’s staying safe and hydrated and up to speed on his calorie intake.

Andrew: So before we even hear from Verbie about his recent Ultraman race in Arizona, we’ve heard a few stories already, but I just want to hear from his coach and his crew leader first. Ande, we’ll start with you. How did Jason do out there?

Ande: He was absolutely amazing in just a brief little sentence. I was so proud of him throughout the whole race, but my proudest moment was watching him just demolish the run course. He never walked more than two minutes the whole time.

Andrew: Wow.

Ande: Over the entire 52.4 miles. He ran the entirety of the inclines and there was a monster climb in there. It just kept going and going and going and I was just so amazed by the whole thing. But like Verbie said, “it’s swim, bike, run not swim, bike, walk.” So I mean, his grit was just unmatched that day and I was just blown away by the whole thing. I was in awe. I bow down to you Verbie.

Andrew: Coach Kurt, how did he do out there?

Kurt: You know, I’m going to ditto what Ande said a couple things. I think that first of all Jason was really incredible. You know, your maiden voyage in an Ultraman you just don’t know. You respect the distance. You respect everything, but he really was. He was super, super consistent. I think the one thing is he was definitely able to execute and it’s something that I think makes Ande a great athlete and makes Jason a great athlete is they can execute. They can do the training. They can do the assessments, but on race day, I know these two people extremely well and that’s what separates them from their competitors. We only had one scarry spot and Andrew you can appreciate this. It was actually on the Ironman Arizona course right there at the Beeline right where you turn around.

Andrew: Yep.

Kurt: So you know, we’re settling in. We’re like at mile 110. Right where you turn around for the Ironman we just kept on going and then we made a left hand turn. We’re sitting there in the parking lot and all of a sudden Jason was stopped at the light. Okay, he gets on the bike. He goes about 100 yards and then he stops. He’s like, “Coach, my left leg is completely numb.” And all of a sudden in my head I’m going, “Oh no!”

Andrew: You’ve got a ways to go on a numb leg.

Kurt: I didn’t want to hear that from Verbie because this is like, you know, the Beast. He is the icon. He is the big cheese. If the big guy is telling me at 110 I cannot go, it’s like “Wow.” That was a wakeup call. So everything we had to really in the moment kind of just pivot, I mean literally. It’s like, “Okay, we’re trauma surgeons. We’ve been there before. We’re going to take care of Verbie.” So we got out some arnica, we got some Advil. There’s another product that we use from another company that I work with called Mdrive and this product is called ATP which is adenosine triphosphate when you think of it, but this is a product that’s been developed that we had a very limited supply, but I dug way, way, way deep into my storage and I was able to find two bottles just for my special athlete here, Jason, and that was going to be like on day three. I look at Ande and I said, “You know what, we’ve got to go with that now.”

Andrew: Wow.

Kurt: It was scary because I know Jason and to see him at that point it was like, “Oh no. We’ve got a lot of race to go. Jason, we’ve got to get back in the mix.” So anyway. We took care of him. It seemed like it was about two minutes or so. We got him back on the bike and he’s out there on the road. It was about an hour and a half later and he was like, “I don’t know what you guys gave me, but I’m really happy. I feel really, really good right now.” and he was back to his normal self.

Andrew: Wow.

Kurt: He was really aerodynamic on the bike. He was just chomping away. He was just like out there. So I think for me that was that one moment, but you know. It’s going to happen to me. It’s going to happen to Ande. Any person in any event like this you’re going to get to that dark spot. So for me that was the scary part, but again, just like Ande said I was so proud of Jason on day three, because you can imagine you’re starting a double marathon and we told Jason it played out perfectly. There’s going to be guys running under a seven minute mile, Jason. He’s like, “Really?” “Yeah watch them.” And that’s exactly– Jason just sat back running like 9:30-ish, watching his heart rate. He came through 13 miles perfectly. I think he was 1:58. He came through the marathon about 3:55, 3:58, but when you’re leapfrogging like that we could see what was going on in front, we could see what was going on in back and it was like, “Okay, Jason. I want you to be patient and the three guys in front of you, they’re now walking. One guy is starting to vomit. They’re not looking good Jason. Be patient.” But I told him. I said, “Jason, this is like catching big fish. You’re reeling them in and this is like catching rabbits.” I think watching Jason at the end he got so pumped up– He got really pumped up at mile like 48. He said, “Coach, when I finish this I’m going to do my 5K assessment.” I said, “Verbie, let’s just finish this first.”

Andrew: You might have had a little too much of that ATP.

Kurt: I think he did. He was on ATP for sure. Definitely. But you know, like Ande said. He crushed that run. He was just like, “What hill? I don’t see a hill.” He was just in that mental zone that for any athlete that wants to be inspired, they’ve got to watch Jason. I mean, it was just– I’ve never seen that before from anyone.

Andrew: Yeah. It sounds like he was locked in at that moment. It’s interesting just hearing you talk about those moments where you’re on the side of the road, your athlete is coming by, you’re assessing what they need. It almost sounds like a triathlon version of a NASCAR pitstop, right? Where you’re just, okay what does the car need? What does the car need to get in its most aerodynamic, most efficient, engine running well– You know, that’s what it reminds me of. What does the driver need? And that’s what you guys did for Verbie every single time he rolled through and hearing those stories is really fascinating. So Jason, you were the one out there putting down the watts, putting down the power, putting down the 9:30 miles that kept you rolling. Tell us about your first Ultraman experience. How did it go out there?

Jason: Ohh, it was everything I thought it would be and more.

Andrew: Sure.

Jason: I was the happiest person in the world at times and I was the most miserable, why did I sign up for this? Whoever invented running I’m going to go shoot them later when I find them. It was– I went through every emotion there was. It was like a roller coaster as you can imagine, but it was amazing. I had the greatest crew. You couldn’t have nailed it better saying a NASCAR pitstop and that’s how they were. Again, I’d roll in. “This hurts!” I would see them jump in the van, take off 500 yards down the road. They would stop again and they would be running out with whatever I needed. Anything from my legs for cramps, bags of ice to hold in my hands to keep me cool. They had anything and everything I could think of. They were there and most of the times I didn’t even have to tell them what I needed. They already had stuff there waiting and were like, “You need this.” “Okay.” and just keep– I had the easy part like I kept telling them. I just had to keep running or keep moving forward. That was it. They were doing everything else. They made it so simple for me. The only think I had to worry about them was they wanted to keep running in the road by cars and it was making me nervous. I was like, “You guys need to get over. You’re going to get hit!” And they would yell at me, “No don’t worry about us. This is about you!” I’m like, “No. You guys are making me nervous. Get on the shoulder some.” And they’re like, “You’re not supposed to be thinking about that. You’re in a race.” I’m like, “Well, I’m still worried about you guys.”

Andrew: “I’ve got to think about something.”

Jason: Yeah. I don’t want you guys to get hit and then I have to stop and tend to you. This is about me, not you. So other than that, yeah. It was an emotional three days. That’s for sure.

Andrew: I saw the footage of day one at the lake. Now, I know the swim got shortened because of just the weather that day; the high winds. The chop was just enormous. I believe, if I remember Ande’s posting correctly, you got through two loops of the swim. So tell us about that little bit of time you had in the water.

Jason: It was almost glass when it started. So I reached the first turn buoy and took a left. We were going counter clockwise. I took a left and this wave smacked me right in the face and I was like, “Where did that thing just come from?” I mean, literally, I was six, seven minutes into the swim and I’m like, “Alright, just get your rhythm. Keep going.” And I was getting picked up and dropped down. I felt like I was ten feet in the air and doing this huge stroke and then slapping down hard because I was in the air and it took everything I had to get to that second turn buoy and I turned that and I could see the dock and then it was kind of hitting me to the side; on the right hand side. So it wasn’t as bad, but still getting thrown. I drank so much water and I got that first loop done and I’m like, “Okay, we’ve got this. We’re still going.” I got to that first turn buoy again and turned and that was when the head on winds and again. I was like in a washing machine. I was picked up, thrown over.

Andrew: And you’re just on loop two at this point of ten.

Jason: Yeah, just on loop two. I don’t know if I would have made it. In my head I wasn’t going to stop. They were going to have to pull me out or I was going to hit my six hours. I wasn’t going in. I knew that. I didn’t care how crazy it would have gotten, I’m not stopping. There was no doubt, they made the right call.

Andrew: One of the really interesting things for me both in racing Ironman and just as TriDot staff being at a lot of Ironman races is once the races are– even at a 70.3. Once the races are 6 to 16 hours long, the weather just has such an opportunity to just change throughout the day and throughout each discipline even. I mean a bike course that starts off really pleasant can just be miserable by the end of it and you’re just taking that even longer once you’re in the ultra scene. So it’s so interesting to hear how it started perfect and then by loop two we were just getting absolutely trashed. So we heard from your crew already. You kept trucking along on the bike course and you got through the 170-ish mile ride. You got out on the run course the next day and were just consistently just clocking away at your pace. So for you, once you hit the back half of that run course, you hit that last marathon, you’re catching people in front of you who are struggling and you’re working your way towards your first Ultraman finish line, what was the back half of that final day like for you?

Jason: As Kurt said earlier, I am so glad– I was lucky enough to be able to get out there and he drilled into my head many times, the most important part of the race is going to be the run. This is going to be where it’s going to make or break the athletes. Everything is the run so all my training sessions run, run. Concentrate on the run. I really had that drilled into my head. I knew the second half of the marathon was where the race was really going to be decided. Are you going to lose spots or are you going to be able to keep going or not. When I got to where I knew– they had the timing set up saying you were at their marathon, but I had already ran that part. I started a little before that and so once you started seeing things familiar it was like, “Oh, I know where I am now.” You just got that little warm feeling, good feeling inside like, “Okay, I know where I am. We know what’s coming up. Let’s do this.” I just switched over in my head. I mean, again, sometimes I was feeling great joking and other times I was hurting bad and I just tried to keep going. You’re not walking. Just keep going. Keep moving your feet. Keep moving your feet. I could see athletes up in front of me and deep down I’m like, “Alright. Let’s charge ahead and get them and really show them who’s the boss here.” Then I’m like, “Nope, just stay your thing.” Kurt, Ande, Rick, Daniel, they were all “Keep going your pace.” They were giving me words of encouragement and I just stuck to that and just saw them keep fading back and I just kept moving forward. I still don’t know how I just kept going. I dug down deep and just put myself somewhere else and just kept moving. Kept moving and I just kept thinking, “Kurt said keep running. Keep running.” So like Ande said I would tell them. “This is swim, bike, run not swim, bike, walk.” and as soon as I would see that person in front of me start walking I’m like, “I’ve got this guy’s number. He’s mine. No problem.”

Andrew: Jason you get towards the finish line, it’s your first ever ultra. You’ve crossed Ironman finish lines. You’ve crossed ultra-distance finish lines. Was the Ultraman finish line any different for you?

Jason: You know, it’s not the– there’s no red carpet. There’s no thousands of people cheering on the side. There was my crew and maybe four other people standing there at the finish line; five and they were the race workers. There might have been another athlete already getting some food that was ahead of me. So it wasn’t all glamorous and fireworks going off. It’s just that little tight family. That’s what makes it better than any Ironman finish I’ve ever done. Just that Ohana family. You’re all together and everything you’ve just been through and you’re able to cross that line together. There’s no other feeling like it. It’s so special.

Andrew: Now Kurt, you have the most experience of all four of us, three of us on this podcast who have done this before including winning the Ultraman World Championship twice. What is it like for you to have had success at this distance, to have done this distance so many times yourself, to watch your prodigies and athletes like Ande and Verbie go through this experience themselves?

Kurt: Yeah. As I’ve reflected on just being a part of the crew and supporting Jason I would say really it’s beyond gratifying. It’s like it’s the best of both worlds that you can compete as an athlete, but I think as a coach when you’re actually out on the field literally. You’re in the thick of it. It’s like you are on the dance floor and you are being able to support in some capacity even if it’s the mental side of that or doing logistics, whatever the case might be, and it’s just so fulfilling. I think as we have grown together as a small group that working with Jason, working with Ande, working with Rick and working with John Mayfield that I start to see this thing just kind of manifesting or flourishing in a very positive way. That suffering together, as you know, it’s tough in the moment, it’s like, “Wow.” But you can’t sweat the small stuff. You keep your head up, your shoulders back, you keep your eye on the prize and I think when you have that adversity it really bonds you. It keeps you together and it’s something that you’re never going to forget just like Jason said. I know just going back to 2019, I had some moments on that double marathon coming from Hawi where it’s like, “Ande, this is not working.” It was like at mile 37 she goes, “We’ve got Pedialyte, we’ve got water, we’ve got Coke, we’ve got Gatorade.” I said, “You know what? None of that sounds good right now. I’m like…”

Andrew: Wow.

Kurt: And I’m out there on the Queen K knowing I’ve got a long way to go. Jason– I think the weather lined up for Jason and that was really really good.

Andrew: Great.

Kurt: But it was a different perspective and it was more about that we. So the focus wasn’t on me as the athlete. It was being part of a great crew, being just that coach knowing that I had my niche right there and I think just to see everyone from that perspective was good for me to see the other side of the coin because it made me appreciate crew members now. For Ultramans I know for sure the crew really pull through, but now that I’ve been able to help Jason on his maiden voyage I think that was great. Something when I look back really in my coaching career, this is something that I will always remember to say “Wow, we got Jason. Here’s his first one.” If he never does it again that’s fine, but I know Jason. He’ll call me or text me in a couple weeks and say, “Coach, I’ve got this idea.” “Okay Jason. Where we going now? What are we doing next?” But see what he’s done is he’s really inspired other people like Luis or whoever to say, you know what? You don’t have to be #1 in the world to do an Ultraman or do an ultra event and that’s the beauty of this. The beauty is that everyone is supporting everyone and it’s different than the Ironman awards; dog eat dog. This is more we’re on a crew to support Jason, but if someone goes by and needs something, you know what? We’re going to do that. In fact at one point, Ande was there, but they were like “Hey, we’re short on water.” “Okay, we’re going to give you 12 bottles of water.” They were like, “Are you serious?” No, no, no. This is how we do it in this event. Other events it’s kind of that dog eat dog where nah. Well, I’ve got a half a bottle. Here. That’s all I’m going to give you and that’s something different. I think you have to keep that good vibe, that Ohana, the family then the Aloha, the love of just wow. That person is trying so, so hard.

Andrew: So Kurt I am curious because when it comes to the Ironman World Championships in Kona, you’ve had a lot of successful days there landing in the top ten overall multiple times. But at Ultraman you have experienced something there that you’ve never experienced in Kona and that’s crossing the finish line first place, world champion. So for both of those two Ultraman World Championship events when you won, what was it like just that moment where you’re on the run course and you realize I’m going to win this thing. What was that moment like for you and what was it like crossing the line knowing that you were the world champion at this distance?

Kurt: Well, boy. You know that was a few years ago, but I can remember back in ‘83 it was, again, it was our maiden voyage and I knew that I could definitely swim well and my strategy was pretty straight forward. Just immediately go off the front. Just put a lot of pressure on people and get out #1 and just have them chase you. Then I had a lot of respect for people that were in that event because I remember there was a guy named Stu Mittleman that was an ultramarathoner and he was a good guy and I did some intel on him and he’s doing like 200 mile races and 24 hour races. A week before the race we were kind of breaking bread down at the pier and he was like, “So Kurt, what are you going to do today?” I’m like, “Well, you know I’m going to probably go out by the cemetery and I’m going to run the last 12 miles into town.” I said, “How about you?” He said, “Well, I’m going to go run for six hours.” Wow and I’m thinking this guy is really serious. I mean, he’s going to go run for six hours, I’m going to run for like two. So going into that day three I think I had about a two hour gap on him and I figured if I can run like seven hours he’s going to have to run like five. I didn’t know if that would happen, but I remember it vividly. It was just like one of those days where it was just kind of magical where things fell into place and I actually even that first year I didn’t have a pacer the whole way. I ran all the way from Hawi all the way back to Kona. My crew was right there but I remember I started walking like at mile 40 and then the people that were back they just rolled up like, “Oh he’s going to bonk. He’s going to crash.” I said, “Nah. I’m going to walk for like two minutes and then I’m going to start running again.” So I think at that point I knew for sure I had it and I knew that once I got to the airport if anyone did try to challenge me I was going to make them work super, super, super hard. They were going to pay a big price. I wanted that to be clear. So for me it was just again a surreal experience. Then coming back in ‘85 it was very similar. What happened that day on the run it was just super because the winds were blowing from Hawi. It was tailwinds. So you can imagine this. You start at Hawi. You’re at an elevation. You’re going down. I got to that first marathon at Waikoloa in 3:19.

Andrew: Oh wow.

Kurt: And when I saw that split I said, “You know what? I’m just going to go for it. I am not going to back off. I’m just going to press and press and press.” And I was shocked that literally, as in TriDot we try to negative split, that on the back end I think I ran a 3:23 so my split was 6:41, but it was just one of those days that probably will never happen again, but you never know, is that you just know for sure in your mind, in your soul, in your spirit that today is just one of those days and I’m just forever grateful that I could finish it number one, but to be number one and finish in first it was pretty special. But the finish there as you came on the podcast I was showing Ande and Jason a picture that there weren’t thousands of people there. I mean there was one. One officer there.

Andrew: Yeah.

Kurt: He was there. They had the banner up. But at the end I looked back and said all the way from Hawi that was pretty special.

Andrew: Nope, that is very cool. So Ande for you, you did the Triple Anvil which we’ve mentioned is a little bit different from the race that Verbie just finished, a little bit different than Kurt’s experience at the World Championships for Ultraman and you were actually– when you raced it you were second overall beating all of the men by the way. First place was a woman. You were second place as a woman. I know it’s a race finish that you’re fond of, so tell us just a little bit about your experience doing that continuously on the clock Anvil series.

Ande: Yeah. I mean, I have a lot of really awesome memories from that. Like we said before, it’s different from the Ultraman in that the clock runs continuously once the race begins. So if you need to eat or sleep or use the bathroom you’re still on the clock and because these events run nonstop as opposed to Ultraman, these races are generally held on a closed course like in a park or something similar. So the roads are closed down because again these things are running continuously. They need to have permits for these things so they can’t just keep a permit for 336 miles on an open course.

Andrew: Sure, yeah.

Ande: So the Triple cut off, again which is what I did. Again, you’ve got 60 hours to complete the entire course, but the Anvil is part of the USA Ultra Tri Series and offers a double, a triple, a quintuple, and a deka-distance. So that is ten times the Ironman distance. For people that want to do math, you can add that all up. But the Triple just to kind of go back was a 7.2 mile swim, a 336 mile bike ride, and then a 78.6 mile run. You do all the swim then all the bike then all the run. Much like the Ultraman series though, the racers, the staff, the crew they become very close knit over the course of the race. I still very regularly talk to the people that I raced with as well as the race director. It is very much about family. I think Kurt kind of alluded to this as well. This is kind of like how Ironman started. It was a very small subset of people, very close knit, everybody knew everybody else. It was all about knowing people and being in that element together and enjoying the suffer fest together. I don’t remember what my finish time was. I don’t remember much about the course loops and whatnot, but I will never forget how I felt during that event and how my crew made me feel, how the other racers made me feel, the emotions that come along with the ups and downs of being awake for that long, but also being moving for that long. It’s something that really doesn’t compare to anything else. You have to experience it to truly know what that feels like.

Andrew: We’ll close down our main set here today with this question. I’m curious to know from all three of you. After doing ultra and reaching that finish line where it literally takes months of training, three days of racing to get to that finish line; the other distances– sprint, Olympic, 70.3, to Ironman– do those feel like short efforts to you know or do those still take quite a bit of effort as well? Ande, what do you think?

Ande: Honestly I sometimes feel the shorter distances are harder.

Andrew: Yeess.

Ande: You’re redlining the entire time as opposed to zone 2 forever when you’re doing the ultra-distance races. It’s a completely different kind of pain in my opinion and I’m not really sure you can compare them. Again, a lot of it doesn’t really come down to physical ability. When you’re talking about the ultra-distance stuff it comes down to mental grit as opposed to physical ability a lot of times. I don’t know. I enjoy sprint races every now and then, but I really don’t like going RPM of 240 every race. I really kind of enjoy that sit back and let’s just grind this out. Like I said, I have a feel for the long game and that’s really where I like to sit.

Andrew: Verbie, what do you think? Does Ironman sound like a short effort now that you’ve done Ultraman?

Jason: I wouldn’t say a short distance, no. It definitely still sounds long. I was thinking about it. I haven’t raced anything shorter than an Ironman in three or four years so I don’t even know what a sprint and that feels like anymore. I would be excited just I’m guessing the training is a lot shorter and I would like that.

Andrew: It sure is. Let me tell ya.

Jason: Like Ande said, you redline that whole way. My body these days it doesn’t seem to warm up until I’m 20, 30 sometimes an hour into a session and I’m like, “Oh, now I’m finally loosened up. Now I can start going.” If that happened in a sprint, it would already be over and everybody would be way ahead of me and I’d still be trying to loosen up. So yeah. It would be weird going back to one of those, but it definitely– They’re all hard. They all have their hardness. They all have their unique thing about them. So one’s not any different– obviously they’re different, but they all have the same amount of pain somewhere.

Andrew: So my one shot at beating Verbie in a tri is to take him as short as possible. So I’ve got to get Verbie on course at a super sprint to see if I can take him out…

Jason: Yes.

Andrew: …at a super sprint. Kurt, what do you think? I know you still regularly race 70.3 and Ironman. Do 70.3’s feel short to you know after doing Ultraman so many times?

Kurt: I think any distance– if it’s a sprint, Olympic, 70.3, Ironman, or Ultraman. If you’re racing well and you are executing and you know you are, it’s a very subjective feeling, it goes very quickly. Conversely, if it is not a good day and the weather is not working your way that no matter what the distance it can be really, really, really challenging.

Andrew: Yeah.

Kurt: Or you have a mechanical issue on the bike or something, but I think Andrew, probably the two best examples for me would be the huge difference between Coeur d’Alene which no matter how you try to tell that story it was not enjoyable at all.

Andrew: 108 degrees in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho.

Kurt: The swim was very enjoyable. Check that box. The first loop on the bike was enjoyable. Check that box. From mile 90 on that bike and the whole marathon, not so much and that is the longest distance– It’s like, “Why are we going to run a marathon?” I mean, like I’m good right now after the bike with 112 miles so, I’m good. Conversely in Arizona, last race of the year, you were there, Verbie was there. Better conditions. Better weather, wrap it up the whole year. It was like man at mile 23 it’s like I’m doing a two hour run off the bike here. I’m just going to finish this puppy and it was just so enjoyable. So it really kind of depends and you just don’t know, but that’s what keeps us so humble and it makes you want to continue to go back. You say, you know, that’s what it’s all about is if I can get that one race in where I feel that good that’s the ultimate. The other times it’s we’re going to struggle a little bit, but you know life is like that too. So I think it parallels our sport. Our lifestyle parallels life that you can learn so much out there for three days. The adversity that Jason went through, there’s no doubt in my mind that he’s going to be a better person for what he’s encountered and he’s going to inspire that vibe around him, that aura around him. People will pick up on that. It’s like, man, we can get this done. We’ve just got to hang in there a little bit longer.

Cool down theme: Great set everyone! Let’s cool down.

Andrew: Here on the TriDot podcast we never partner with a brand and promote their goods and services without testing it and wholeheartedly believing in the product. deltaG Ketone Esters are something our regular listeners will have heard us talk about and of course our friends from deltaG were sponsors for this episode and I always enjoy hearing from our athletes on how they get along with the ester when they first try it and Verbie, you have been using deltaG in your training leading up to Ultraman. You used it all race weekend. As a nice little cool down here today, tell us what your experience with deltaG has been like.

Jason: I really like it. You know it’s really hard to explain the feeling it gives you. It’s not like drinking an energy drink and you get all amped up and you’re like, “Ahh! Let’s go do this! Let’s crush this!” It puts your mind into this state, kind of like a zen state almost. You’re just– you can concentrate on everything so clearly and it just keeps you focused and really just your mind is not wandering in all these weird places. It really just keeps you on the goal and in that zone pretty much.

Andrew: Yeah, no and I think just about every time I talk with an athlete and ask them how they’re enjoying it that’s– People speak to yeah my training sessions are going well when I use it, but the number one thing people report back is that mental clarity. Just that and people phrase it different ways. Some people are like, “Oh I just feel so dialed in when I take it.” I’ve done some of the delta Gold Coffee Booster before podcast recordings and just mentally I just feel very dialed in and I think I speak a little bit more– I can tell a difference on the microphone between how many ums and stutters and stops I have when I’ve had a little bit in my coffee and when I haven’t. So Jason, in your training which of the products are you using and for which sessions are you deploying those products?

Jason: I’m a bigger athlete so I go Tactical.

Andrew: Okay.

Jason: I get the full 32 I think it is grams?

Andrew: Yep 32 grams of raw ester. No sweetener, no flavoring.

Jason: Yep. Yeah and I did it on my long sessions pretty much my race rehearsals both bike and runs. I would have liked to done it more, but it does get a little pricey. But no, any long, hard session I was using it just to make sure my body knew what it was. I would even practice it with the swim just so there was– Nothing new on race day, right? So I wanted to make sure my body was used to it, my mind was used to it, and I knew what was going to happen for me.

Andrew: So you had the Tactical mixed in with your Infinite or were you just taking the Tactical straight?

Jason: I was taking the Tactical straight.

Andrew: Okay.

Jason: So I was doing a half hour before and then every two hours I was drinking half a bottle. So I saved bottles and then would transfer it over. I would slam the bottle. I would pretend that I was back in the day at the bar and I would slam down the bottle and then I would chase it with a little bit of Infinite and off I was going.

Andrew: Sure. Well that’s it for today folks–

Jason: I do know that when I had it in my back pocket in the race for Arizona and it was some beautiful days and that sun was beating down. I’m going to tell you, cooked raw esters are a little different. It definitely changes it up even more. They were pretty warm. They had to been in the high 90s. You know, they were against my back and then the sun’s hitting down on that so yeah. That even added– I would suggest trying to keep them cooler as a future for me to do that.

Andrew: Maybe next time you’ll have them with your crew in a cooler that they can hand them to you at one of those pit stops.

Jason: Yeah that would have probably been smarter that’s for sure.

Andrew: Well that’s it for today folks. I want to thank TriDot coach Kurt Madden, Coach Jason Verbracken, and TriDot Ambassador Ande Wegner for talking about ultra-distance triathlon. A big thanks to deltaG for partnering with us on today’s episode. Head to deltagketones.com to learn more about fueling with the deltaG Performance Ketone Ester and remember that you can use promo code TRIDOT20 for 20% off your first order. Enjoying the podcast? Have any triathlon questions or topics you want to hear us talk about? Head to tridot.com/podcast to let us know what you’re thinking. We’ll have a new show coming your way soon. Until then, Happy Training!

Outro: Thanks for joining us. Make sure to subscribe and share the TriDot podcast with your triathlon crew. For more great tri content and community, connect with us on Facebook, YouTube, and Instagram. Ready to optimize your training? Head to TriDot.com and start your free trial today! TriDot – the obvious and automatic choice for triathlon training.

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