TriDot Podcast .226

What Today’s Triathlete Can Learn from Yesterday’s Champions

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Intro:This is the TriDot podcast. TriDot uses your training data and genetic profile,combined with predictive analytics and artificial intelligence to optimize yourtraining, giving you better results in less time with fewer injuries. Ourpodcast is here to educate, inspire, and entertain. We’ll talk all thingstriathlon with expert coaches and special guests. Join the conversation andlet’s improve together.

Andrew Harley: Welcome to the TriDot podcast. I am really pumped for this one. We'vegot two legendary guests here to tell us what the triathletes of today canlearn from the legends of our sport. The legends are legends for a reason, andthere is plenty we can learn from them and their experiences. Our firsttriathlon legend on this episode is TriDot coach Mark Allen. Mark is the mostsuccessful triathlete of all time, having won the Ironman Triathlon WorldChampionships six times, the Nice International Triathlon ten times, and thefirst recognized Olympic-distance Triathlon Championship. He went undefeated in21 straight races for an astounding two-year winning streak from late 1988 to1990. He's been inducted into the Hall of Fame for Ironman, USA Triathlon, andthe International Triathlon Union. ESPN named Mark as the Greatest EnduranceAthlete of All Time. Mark, so happy to have you as Legend Number One on ourshow today. Happy 2024! Have you gotten any good surfing in so far this year?

Mark Allen: You know, I was out of town for the biggest of the swells that hit overthe holiday, but I was following it on Instagram. I'm about two blocks from theocean, and the beach right next to where I live, the waves were just completelywashing over the road. I went down there after I got back from traveling, andthere's these just massive tree trunks that are strewn all over the place, andthese humongous boulders – it's mind-boggling that water can actually move themup onto the road and across the road. Anyway, nature is pretty powerful.Amazing.

Andrew:Also with us today, Legend Number Two on our show, is coach Kathleen McCartney.Kathleen is a triathlon coach, motivational speaker, and a twelve-time Ironmanfinisher. She won the Ironman World Championship in 1982. She has also beenfeatured in national publications including Outside, Runners World, Triathlete,and Lava Magazine. Kathleen is the recipient of Competitor Magazine’s TriathlonLegend Award, and was co-awarded Triathlon Business International's FemaleTriathlete of the Year in 2012, which I think is really super cool. Kathleen,good to see you, and welcome for the first time to the TriDot podcast!

Kathleen McCartney: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here, Andrew,and it's so great to be here with you, Mark. We met many, many decades ago, andhad our very early triathlon careers launched back at the time when I met Mark.So it's exciting to be here.

Andrew:And everything the two of you have gone through has just led you to this momentpodcasting with me, Andrew the Average Triathlete, Voice of the People andCaptain of the Middle of the Pack. As always on our show today, we're going toroll through our warmup question, we'll settle in for our main setconversation, and then wind things down with our Coach Cooldown Tip of theweek. Lots of good stuff, let's get to it!

Warm up theme: Time to warm up! Let’s get moving.

Andrew:When something super-cool is happening, or you are in a moment that is extraspecial, a common thing that people say is “Pinch me, I must be dreaming.” Thesport of triathlon can certainly deliver “pinch me”-type moments. So for ourwarmup question today, I want to hear everyone's triathlon “pinch me” moment.What tri memory was just so cool that surely it didn't actually happen? Surelyyou must have been dreaming. Mark, Kathleen, what has been from your entiretime in the sport – lots of good memories to pull from here – what has beenyour tip-top “pinch me” moment from your time in the sport of triathlon?Kathleen, we'll start with you.

Kathleen:Well, mine is so obvious, and it was definitely at the very top. There havebeen many. I've been training and racing now for over 40 years, and I've neverretired. But I have to say, looking back on all those incredible memories, forsure the “pinch me” moment was in 1982, when I crossed the finish line at theIronman World Championship in first place. But I didn't know that I had won, sothat was absolutely a mind-blowing experience. I approached the finish line, itwas kind of dark, it was confusing. The street had kind of narrowed down –

Andrew:Did you know you were in second approaching the finish line?

Kathleen:Yes, I knew that I was in second place, but I was hoping to catch Julie Mosswho was leading at the time. I just kept going as fast as I could and as hardas I could, and I kept looking, and at a certain point I couldn't see thefinish line. And suddenly, for the very first time all day, the ABC Wide Worldof Sports camera truck was an arm length in front of me. So I finally had noplace to go. I couldn't run, they were blocking my way. So I just said,“Where's the finish line?” The camera truck had been rolled on top of it. Sothe volunteers just picked up the banner off the ground, held it up, put a leiand a medal around my neck, and I heard someone say over the loudspeaker,“Ladies and gentlemen, Kathy McCartney is the winner!” And I'm like, “I what?I'm first?” And I started jumping up and down, and it was absolutely a “pinchme” moment because I literally couldn't believe it because I didn't see Juliewhen I passed her. So I was very surprised.

Mark:I will never forget watching the footage of that 1982 race. I had neveractually seen a triathlon before, I'd never heard of a triathlon, I didn't knowwhat the Ironman was. But I was a fan of ABC Wide World of Sports, so that daywhen I was watching the broadcast, of course like millions of people, I wasjust mind-blown at what people were able to do with their bodies, to swim,bike, and run that far and get it all done in one day. I thought it had to belike a three-day event or something, you know? And he's like, “No, they startat 7:00 in the morning, and they finish 17 hours later at midnight.” And ofcourse, Julie crawling to the finish line was memorable, but I will also neverforget Kathleen, just that moment of crossing the line, kind of figuring youmust have finished, and you're sort of like in this suspended state ofanimation or whatever, and all of a sudden it dawns on you, or you hear thatyou won, and it was just like this eruption of emotion. I can't even imaginewhat that must have been like, to have it be a surprise. Like, how many peoplehave won the Ironman, and they didn't know it when they crossed the line?

Andrew:No, not too many. Yeah.

Mark:There's only one, and she's on your podcast. Dang, Andrew!

Andrew:Kathleen and I were actually talking about that race in Kona when I met you. Wewere hanging out on the day of the women's race, watching the pro womenthroughout the day, and I remember asking you – because I was very familiar whoyou were, I knew you were Ironman World Champion – but I didn't realize thatthe year you won was the year of the Julie Moss Crawl. Because the Julie MossCrawl is what everybody talks about these days. So we know, “Oh yeah, KathleenMcCartney, 1982 Championship.” I just had never put the puzzle pieces togetherthat the year you won was 1982, I just knew you were a Champion. So I asked youin Kona, and I'll ask you again now because I loved your answer and I wouldlove for folks to hear it. Looking back on that moment – and we've kind ofheard what the moment was like for you, coming to the finish line not knowingyou won – so fast forward X number of years, how do you feel about the factthat Julie’s crawl was so talked about? That footage is played every singleyear in the hype videos leading up to the race, and I feel like not as manypeople talk about Kathleen McCartney, the person who won the race. How do youfeel about that moment playing out like that in the history of the sport as itevolved?

Kathleen:Yeah, I mean, I'm so used to that. I really am literally like the triviaquestion, “Who passed Julie Moss? Like who really cares?” But that's probablywhy you had never really associated me with that. Oftentimes Julie ismentioned, and they don't even mention who won. But I don't have any problemwith that. Like, I'm so grateful to Julie, and to me, that we both together onthat day made thousands of choices, and those thousands of choices that weremade leading up to the training and on race day led us to the same place within29 seconds of each other, and ten yards of each other. So it's just so mysticaland magical and spectacular, and I couldn't be happier for having shared thatexperience with Julie. She's truly a great person, a great athlete, and we willforever be linked to that. She more so than I, but no, I know that in my heart,I know how hard that I worked to get there, and that was my expectation leadinginto the race. Like, I trained my butt off for one year solid. Julie trained hardtoo. I had a lot of obstacles to overcome to get to the finish line that day. Iended up in the hospital two days before the race. It changed my mind space tolike, “All I want to do is finish. Please let me just get to the start line.”So we all have obstacles, we all have stuff that we're going through. It's themindset and the choices along the way that get us to that finish line. There'snever a doubt that I was going to get to that finish line, but I'm just sograteful that it played out the way that it did, because it did bring attentionto the sport of triathlon. It brought attention to women's sports, like werace, we matter, we are fast, we are strong. We make a difference. So I thinkit did a lot for women, but it inspired people all over the world, mostlybecause –

Andrew:Including Mark Allen.

Kathleen:Yeah, including Mark Allen. So yeah, I love it, I'm thrilled, and I'm sograteful that Julie is the person with whom I share this great honor.

Andrew:The other question I asked you in Kona, talking about that story, was would youhave rather been the champion who won the race and nobody talks about it, orwould you rather be the person who crawled and got second, but everybody talksabout it for the next two decades. And like a champion you said, “Oh, I'm gladI'm the one who won the race and has the Championship title.”

Kathleen:Oh yeah. Absolutely, for sure.

Andrew:I loved that response, it just shows the heart of a champion there. Veryvaluable detour, to hear you share that memory. Steering us back to our warmupquestion, to hear from Mark on his biggest “pinch me” moment from his time intriathlon.

Mark:Yeah, I bet this is one of your longest warmups, Andrew.

Andrew:It has been, but for good reason, and honestly again for a reason that is verymuch in line with the topic of the day. So yeah, I'm all for it.

Mark:Yeah, you know, Kathleen said something that really resonated. She said thatthe race is just magical and mystical, and it sort of unfold. There's a scriptabout the Ironman that we have no control over. Our job as athletes is to goout there and do the best we can and see how it unfolds, and to manage the dayas best as we can. Whether it's turning out the way we hope, or it's completelyfalling apart at the seams, there's always that question a thousand timesthroughout the day where you ask yourself, “Is this the best version of myselfthat I can be right now?” Probably Julie was asking herself that, Kathleenclearly stayed on task even though she was in second place, and probably didn'tthink that she really had a chance to catch Julie. Of course she did. So goingto my “pinch me” moment, and you said you probably guessed it, and I'm prettysure you guessed it right. It was it was my first win in 1989, and the reasonthat that was such a “pinch me” moment is that it was seven years in the making.You know, I started racing – Kathleen and Julie had their epic race in February1982, and then that year they had a second edition of the Ironman WorldChampionship in Kona in October, and that's where it has stayed ever since. SoI was there in October of 1982, the very first year, and I was actually in thelead with Dave Scott on the bike, and then my derailleur broke and I had todrop out. So a little bit of trivia here, ladies and gentlemen – even though Istarted the Ironman 12 times – Kathleen is a 12-time Ironman finisher – I onlyfinished 11.

Kathleen:Oh, okay. Mark, I’m the same. I started 12 and finished 11, because one of my12 was with my pancreatic cancer patient that I mentored, to support, and thatMike Levine. And I was committed to his journey, so in 2017 I bowed out. I’mquite excited we share that. All right.

Mark:Six years prior to 1989, I had raced the Ironman, I'd finished second, I’dfinished third, I'd finished fifth. I could be in the lead at the end of thebike, halfway through the marathon, even with just a couple of miles to go inthe marathon, but I couldn't win it. And I was really questioning myself, like“Do I have what it takes to win?” 1989, I went into the race with that idealike, “You know what, maybe you don't have what it takes to win. Maybe DaveScott is going to be the winner of this race until time ends. That's okay, justgo there and have the best race you can. Have a fast swim, a fast bike, a fastrun, give it everything you have, and just know that when you cross that finishline, that's the best that you can do on the day, and forget about the idea ofwinning and being the champion.” So going into the race, I had a very differentmindset, and it was very freeing. I could control the actual race that I had, Icouldn't control the race that anybody else was having. Sometimes it's inspiringto think, “Hey, can I be better than that person? Can I beat them?” But at thesame time, you could have the best race of your life and come in behindsomebody, and depending on your perspective, you can be completely bummed, oryou can go, “Wow, I had an amazing, amazing day.” So anyway, I went into therace that year hoping just to finally have a great race and not fall apart, togive it a hundred percent effort and cross that finish line strong. And as weknow, it ended up being in an eight-hour side-by-side battle with Dave, untilthe final uphill before you drop back down into town and go to the finish line,when I was able to pull away. Winning by 58 seconds, another very small margin,something else that we have in common, Kathleen. The “pinch me” moment aboutthat was that I just didn't know if I could ever do that, and I won, andliterally for probably six or seven months after that, I would wake up in themorning with that feeling like, “Did I just have a dream that I won?”

Andrew:“Did that actually happen?”

Mark:Because usually you have those great dreams, you wake up and you're like,“Aagh, it was just a dream! It didn't really happen!” But I woke up and I'mlike, “Oh my God, I did win! I had that amazing day, and it was the mostamazing thing!” And like Kathleen said with Julie, there is something about thedynamic of two people converging with the most amazing performances that theycan ever have on the on the same day, at the same time, in the same place.That's what happened with Dave and I. He had his best Ironman that year, hebroke his previous world record by almost 18 minutes. And I did my best time tothat date by nearly 30, and again the difference in our times at the end was avery slight 58 seconds. So that was definitely my “pinch me” moment. I have somany great memories from the sport, but that's really the one where I just hadto pinch myself over and over and over to realize, “Wow. No, it reallyhappened.”

Andrew:Yeah, both of you certainly deserve to have this form of question go a goodtime, because you deserve to share as long as you want to about winning thoseraces, and having them be your “pinch me” moment. I will keep mine muchshorter, because I have not won an Ironman World Championship. I will say whenI raced Escape From Alcatraz. You know, you see the footage and the pictures ofthe athletes on the side of the boat, about to jump into the Bay to swim toshore, and it just looks so, so freaking wild. And sure enough, being on theboat, in your wetsuit, about to jump in, is certainly a triathlon “pinch me”moment for any athlete. We've talked a long time about this, there's a lot ofemotions charged in these kinds of stories, so I'm really excited to hear fromour audience. What so far in your triathlon experience has been your biggest“pinch me” moment? As I always do, on the Monday that this show comes out, I'mgoing to pose this question on the I AM TriDot Facebook group.So go find my post asking you this question, and please please please shareyour “pinch me” moment from your time triathloning. Can't wait to see what youour listeners have to say.

Main set theme: On to the main set. Going in 3…2…1…

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Allright into the main set of our show, and we've already just learned from thetwo of you as you shared stories from 1989 and 1982. And we're going tocontinue to learn from you two, our legends, our coaches on the show today. I'mreally excited for the triathletes of today to learn from the triathletes ofyesterday about how to be the best we can be in the swim, bike, and run. NowKathleen, earlier I got to talk a little bit about hanging out with you inKona. It was great to meet you there, and you were actually on the islandexclusively to hang out with the TriDot crew, because you were gearing up atthe time to start coaching with TriDot. And now you’ve started coaching withTriDot, like Mark does as well. What's the backstory here? What inspired you tobecome Coach Kathleen?

Kathleen:How I got here was kind of unexpected. I have been involved in triathlon andracing, and I've always considered it part of me, like from the day that Ientered my first triathlon in 1981, in preparation for my win in Kona. And I'vevery heavily identified myself with the Ironman brand. I've done more Ironmanraces than I've done anything else. That was always my true love, particularlyracing at the Ironman World Championship. So I wanted to do something unique inmy life as my career, now that I'm in my 60’s, and I wanted to find somethingthat would use my unique life experiences, my unique gifts, my unique skills.I've identified proudly, and cherished all that the sport has given me, andI've been able to give back in ways like I mentioned before, mentoring cancerpatients, inspiring other people, my children, bringing them along based onthese same ideals. So when I was doing a lot of soul searching early in 2023,thinking about what I could do with my life and wanting to use my unique skills,it just so happened that I heard from my dear friend Kurt Madden.

Andrew:Yeah, I love Kurt Madden. Yeah.

Kathleen:He is now my coach, and he and Brandy Ramirez are now my mentors at TriDot. I'mso fortunate to have them on my team. Kurt had kind of reached out like hewould every year on my birthday and say, “Hey Kathleen, happy birthday!” Wellin the last two years he was like, “Hey, have you considered coaching?” And Iwas always like, “Well, you know, no.” And this year I just thought, “Have Iconsidered coaching?” I feel like I'm a little late to the game, because thereare people like Mark who are –

Andrew:Never too late. No, never too late.

Kathleen:And then I thought, “You know, it's never too late for anything.” That's theone lesson that I've learned. And it's also never too late to try somethingyou've never done before, another thing I learned through triathlon. So Idecided to follow up with Kurt and just say, “Hey, let's have a meeting. Let'stalk about this.” So I had the most incredible meeting with Kurt, as you do,and as you would, because he's so encouraging and supportive and smart. And hetalked to me a lot about TriDot, so that day, that moment, that phone call, Isaid “Yes. I'm going to start my journey now. Let's get started.” So I have toreally be thankful to Kurt, because it's really because of him, and himthinking that I had the right qualities to become a coach and fit in with theculture at TriDot.

Andrew:Yeah, it's certainly a powerful thing, right? When somebody else sees somethingin you that maybe you hadn't considered yet yourself, and then you realize it,and it sinks in, and you start visualizing, “Wow. Yeah, I could be a coach. Icould be a great one.” And Kathleen, I think you're a great fit for TriDot. Ithink any athlete that works with you is going to be happy to have you in theircorner, and I’m excited to hear how all those relationships unfold as youreally get into it. Getting into today's topic, I'm excited for all of ourlisteners to just kind of be coached by the two of you here for a few moments.And I'm curious, as we get into our topic here – as both of you reflect back onthe era when you were racing, versus when you go to the races now and watchyour athletes race, watch the pros race – how much do you feel the sport haschanged, and what aspects of triathlon do you think have changed the most fromwhen you were racing? Mr. Mark Allen, what do you think?

Mark:Well, has the sport changed? Clearly it has changed. We've been posting someold photos of my racing on Instagram just recently.

Andrew:Always love those, Mark. Always love them.

Mark:And just seeing the equipment, and the kit, and the lack of technology, and theridiculous flapping clothing that we had, and the shifters on the bike that areon the down tube, and no aero bars, and you know at my very first Ironman I hadtoe clips, so you had to secure them in. I mean, just the technological changesobviously have dramatically changed the sport. It's made it so that you canjust go faster with the same kind of fitness. The second thing that's changedis just the ability to measure what's going on in people's bodies, and tomeasure how their performance is changing literally day-to-day through theirpower, and their pace, and their heart rate. Just all of the things that can betracked, that we as coaches at TriDot are able to look at and make sense of.Kind of like Kathleen, Kurt contacted me sometime before the pandemic and said,“Hey, I know you're coaching, you should check out TriDot.” At that point intime, I didn't feel the need to integrate any more sort of technological capabilitiesinto my coaching. I just felt like I was able to stay on top of stuff. Butfast-forward a couple of years, and all of a sudden everything is fastforwarded, and suddenly I'm realizing unless I have some kind of application,or program, or analytical tool that can help me sift through the mountains ofdata that's coming in from my athletes each and every day, my brain's justgoing to go kaboom trying to make sense of all this stuff. So my businesspartner Scott Zagarino had contacted Jeff Booher, he had looked at the app andeverything, and he's like, “Wow, this is really good. This is what you need,because it's what you've been searching for. You don't have to build it, it'salready built, and it's light years ahead of anything anybody else has outthere.” So as we know, here we are. But with that change, I think there can bea sort of a tendency with athletes now to think that just because they hit alltheir numbers in training, that they're racing is going to completely fall inline too. And hopefully it does. However, when the gun goes off, you still haveto manage yourself. You still have to corral that voice that can sometimesderail your best effort, that can come up with a thousand excuses why youshould back off, or why you can't do what you’re there to do. Or you see thebig dream slipping away, and all of a sudden you just want to give up becauseit's like, “Oh, I did all that training, I hit all the numbers, and it's notshowing up.” Or you look at your watts on the bike, and it's either well belowwhere you thought you would be, or your heart rate is way higher, not becauseyour fitness isn't there, but because it's like 105° and your usage training at75° or whatever it is. So for sure, and I'm sure Kathleen will echo this, butwe had to develop a real intuitive sense about our bodies that helped usactually, literally go beyond the numbers in our performances. And I thinkthat's something that the human element, the heart element, the spiritualelement of your racing, the emotional element of your racing, that's somethingthat can never be measured on a Garmin, or a Wahoo, or whatever you're wearing.It's like, “What's my dedication quotient today? What's my self-confidencequotient? How good am I going to be today at keeping my mind quiet when maybethings are completely chaotic going on around me?” Those were skills that Ipersonally really worked on as an athlete when I was competing, and it's onethat I try to emphasize to people to develop that personal awareness aboutthemselves. Because never do the numbers completely tell the entire story ofwhat's going on with you.

Andrew:That's so true, yeah.

Mark:And I'm sure Kathleen will echo this, that's also one of the values of a coach,is that hopefully a coach will also be watching their athletes with thatbroader viewpoint of like, “Yeah, I see what they're doing in training, butthere's something up.” And sort of tease it out of them, like, “What's goingon? How's everything else in your life?” “Well, my training is good, but I'mhaving some problems at home, and my job is stressful, and I'm not gettingenough sleep.” All of those things that your watch isn't going to tell youabout. So anyway, I absolutely love the technology, because it does help dialin and create efficiency with training that we could never do. I gotovertrained because I didn't know when to stop. I didn't know it was too much.I didn't know when it was time to switch from aerobic to anaerobic and how muchof each I should be doing, because I didn't always have the ways to measurethat. Now you have that. However, no matter how much we dial in those numbers,like I said, there's still that human side of racing. And to me, that's whatmakes the entire journey so cool. Your data, at the end of the day, is notgoing to tell you what a great time you had with your training partners outthere on that long bike ride, or the crazy stuff that you ran into on a trailrun. Those are the memories, those are the things that people will remember fora lifetime. They're not going to remember what their pace was on a certainworkout, but they'll remember the view of those mountains, or the colors of thetrees in the fall, or the huge waves along the ocean when they were running theother day, or the camaraderie that they had with their training partners, thosekind of things. Yeah, that's what's kind of changed.

Andrew:Well, and those are kind of the moments that people are going to share as their“pinch me” moments. No one's going to say, “Oh man, this one time I ran amarathon, and I did it in 3:54, and I was pumped, that was my ‘pinch me’moment.” No, they're probably going to be more emotionally-driven, morememory-based, more experience-based like you're talking about, at leasthopefully they will be. Kathleen, same question over to you. As you look at thesport, where do you think things have kind of changed the most from back whenyou and Mark were racing?

Kathleen:Gosh, Mark, you just spoke of all those changes so completely and sobeautifully. I'd like to go back to the point, back to the day when Mark and Iwere training and racing at the highest level for the times, at least for mefor a few years. Just like Mark said, we had to rely on intuition, and feel,and muscle memory, and trusting your pacing. Even going back to my 1982 race,because obviously we didn't have the TriDot training platform that we have now,we didn't have any analytics. We were just going based on how we felt, whattraining we did, and how we think that would apply to a winning strategy forthe day. So we got to know our own pacing, and how that feels, and how much youthink you have left in the tank, you've got 140.6 miles to go. It's all justbased on training and feeling, training and feeling, and heart and mind. Sowhen I saw Julie at the turnaround with eight miles to go, I felt that the pacethat I was going was going to get me to the finish line with my ultimateperformance and my optimal performance. I felt like I knew what pace I had togo to get there. And then I saw Julie with eight miles to go at the turnaround,after we passed the Bud Light can, she was starting to come unglued, like thewheels were falling off the wagon.

Andrew:You could tell, you could see it.

Kathleen:I could tell, I could see it in her body language, just her stride andeverything, and I was just getting stronger throughout the day. So I said tomyself, “I'm going to keep going my race and my pace,” my intuition that we hadto rely on back then. I even passed one of my friends who's on the sideline,Ron Smith, he was one of my best training partners and mentors, and one of thegreatest, phenomenal athletes and legends of all time. He's like, “Come onKathleen, you've got to catch her! Pick up your pace!” And I was like – thefirst time I got snappy with Ron – “I'm going as fast as I can!”

Andrew:“You pick up your pace!”

Kathleen:Anyway, as it turned out, I was right. I followed my instincts, I followed thetraining that I felt was right. That's all we had, and I made it to the finishline by 29 seconds in first place. But yeah, I think it's just so cool, and I'mso glad I had the opportunity to race so purely. We didn't have prize money, wedidn't have anything very technologically advanced in any way, bicycles,nutrition, clothing. Although we are developing it, and sharing it, and workingon it every day we race. It was fun, the heart and the mind were our biggestguiding forces.

Andrew:What do the both of you think that today's triathlete can learn from yourgeneration about getting the most out of your bodies on race day, and justbeing as in tune as you can be with how you should feel while you're out there?Mark, what do you think?

Mark:My tip for those listening today is to blend those two things together. Whenyou're in a workout, see what's going on with your pace, with your power, withyour cadence rate, all that kind of stuff. But then measure it against howyou're feeling. And some days the numbers can be the same, but your feeling isgoing to be very different. So then you've got to ask yourself, “Why does itfeel different? Am I tired? Did I not feel right in the morning? Have I had toomany hard workouts in a row? Did I not get enough sleep? Am I just under stressin general?” It can be a real learning tool, because the numbers don't lie. Ifyou're going slow, it will tell you. Or if you're going fast, be surprised. Youknow what I mean? So if every athlete nowadays can sort of blend that feelingsense with the actual number sense, it'll really help to dial in yourefficiency in training. You'll catch overtraining quicker, because you'll startto see like, “Oh boy, okay. I get it, I’ve been here before, I see where thisis heading.” So just these two things together I think are the ultimate tool.And that's where TriDot is super cool, because there's so much guidance on whatthese numbers mean on a real physiological level, on a long-term traininglevel. Then when you blend your knowledge base of your body with this, thenlike just this magic combination.

Andrew:Kathleen, what do you think athletes today can learn from you about how to racewell and execute well out there on the course?

Kathleen:It's been so fascinating for me to race for so many different reasons. In myearlier years I was racing to win, and then it was to PR. And then I took sometime off, had a family, came back and I'm like, “Okay, I want my kids to knowme as the IronWoman, the Ironman, the IronMom.

Andrew:I love that, yeah.

Kathleen:And then I came back after a divorce, and I was broken and I needed to find mystrength again, and I needed to find my power. And my touchstone for strengthand empowerment is always Ironman, and I've always known that. So I came back,and then I partnered with Julie, and then I went on to just race for fun, and Iwould find people out along the course along the way and just shepherd peopleto the finish line. I've had some of my best races when I didn't have anyequipment, even in the era of technology, and it was because I was racing for adifferent purpose. So when you need it and want it, it is your best tool andyour best friend, particularly when you can use the technology and your brainand your heart. But sometimes I just encourage people, if they're ever in aposition to say, “Hey, I'm just going to race just because I love it, and mytime doesn't matter,” I've had some of my most glorious moments in those racesin Kona, because I was there for different reasons and it wasn't about me. So racesome for you and speed, and then sometime just go out there and go, “I'm here,I love what I'm doing. I love this sport, I love this island, I love where Iam. I'm so grateful for my health and everything else that I've experiencedtoday.” There's a lot of magic to that as well.

Andrew:Not the answer I expected, Kathleen, but extremely valuable perspective there.Let's take a step back from the race course to the training. Because becoming atriathlete at any level starts with the day-to-day training. We know somethings have changed in training, like you both acknowledge there was no TriDottraining, there were no Garmin watches, there were no analytics back when youwere doing it in the midst of your careers. But you trained hard, you trainedwell, you had great results. What can today's triathlete learn from yourgeneration about day-to-day training? Kathleen, I'll start with you on thisone.

Kathleen:Yeah, I'd say for the day-to-day training, it’s that you've got to have thecommitment. You've got to have the commitment to your training, whatever yourtraining plan was. We've created our own training plan. So you need to haveyour big dream, commit to your training plan, believe you can do it, and beconsistent in that training. I've always been so passionate about every racethat I've entered, and if you want to achieve the goals, you need to be veryconsistent, dedicated, and make the sacrifices. Then ultimately, even if – Markand I both had races where you think the wheels are coming off the wagon. Butyou can never let that stop you from finishing, crossing that finish line. Nomatter how bad things get out there, keep going because things could turnaround.

Andrew:Yeah, very, very true. Mark, when you think of training, and how you trained inthe prime of your career versus what you're doing with athletes now – again,some of the tech has changed, some of the analytics has changed, some of theways we measure and manage training stress is way different and advanced – butwhat are some of the core principles that you use in your own training that arestill true for your athletes today?

Mark:The biggest thing that will build fitness, confidence, and the ability toimprove is consistency. So even if you're cutting a lot of workouts down interms of length, getting something in is so much better than nothing. That wasone of the things that I learned early on, and I actually learned the real nutsand bolts of this lesson the first year that my son was born, a couple of yearsbefore I retired. Prior to that I could sleep when I wanted, every minute of myday was as I wanted. Then all of a sudden you've got this little bean that youlove, and you want to be with and take care of and be a part of their life andgrowth, and all of a sudden there's no day that's just my day, except for mayberace day. So that first year was a real transition, and a year where I had tolearn how to integrate that into my life. And part of it was that I would seelike, “Oh, I'm too tired to do the real workout that I wanted to do today, soI'll just do it some other time.” And I saw that my consistency really droppedoff and I'm like, “Wait a minute. This is not about racking up huge weeklymiles anymore. This is about just doing something, whatever I can, within thestructure of my life as it is right now.” And with that, I was able to comeback the year after he was born and win that sixth title. So that's one thing,the second thing I think is really important for people to keep in the back oftheir mind is you're an organic organism. You're not a computer program. So acoach can give you the ideal training plan, but no life is ideal. No life everysingle day is going to follow that ideal training plan. Whether it's somethingphysiological in you, whether it's something in your scheduling that changes,there's just some of the unforeseen things in life. So just keep it in the backof your mind that it's okay to adapt that as needed. Adapt that super-idealprogram and training plan that you have in front of you, based on how your bodyis. I actually said this, over the weekend I did a webinar with my Mark AllenPremium clients, and I said, “Your body is the ultimate coach. I give you thetraining, TriDot gives you the training, this is ideal. But when you wake up inthe morning, you’ve got to check in with your body and have your body tell you,‘Yes, do the workout. No, cut it short. No, don't even do it.’” And of courseyou're going to have some days where you're just kind of lazy, and you're justsort of like, “Oh, I don't know if I should do it or not.” Just get out thedoor and see what happens in the first 10 or 15 minutes. If you don't start tofeel it after that, maybe you’re even feeling worse, it might be time to turnit around. So ultimately, remember that you are an organic organism.

Andrew:At the time we're recording this, my daughter turns ten months old tomorrow.And guess what, Mark? For the last ten months, it's been a whole lot of Zone 2runs for me.

Mark:I bet, yeah.

Andrew:Yeah, just keeping the wheels spinning. That's what my body feels like doing,with all the interruptions in sleep. Yeah, so I just took a big deep breath asyou were talking. It was, “Okay, Mark Allen's telling me that all those Zone 2runs, if that’s what my body needs, it's what my body needs.” Great reminderthere. But I'm curious, even in spite of the changes, is there anything fromyour era – when it comes to approaching the gear you're using, the equipmentyou're using, how you're equipping yourself to be a triathlete – that you thinktriathletes today can learn from you, with your experience in the sport?Kathleen, what do you think?

Kathleen:Oh gosh, looking back at what equipment I had, like for my very firsttriathlons – I had a steel-framed bicycle, it was beautiful.

Andrew:Yeah. Yeah, you did.

Kathleen:Like Mark said, I had leather bike shoes that would go into the toe straps. Ourhelmets wouldn't save our life, they were like little hairnet helmets. I didwear a one-piece suit in my first race, but I changed into it from a swimsuit,went into a transition area, put on a one-piece suit, and then changed into atwo-piece run outfit. So we had much more complications with changing outfits,heavy bikes, heavy gear. But all that technology and equipment, whether it'sold or up to the latest standards, I just think we all do the best with what wehave. Not everybody can afford some of the latest equipment and so on and soforth. So I just say make the most out of what you have. Remember that it'syour legs and your arms, and your mind and your heart, and your body that'sgoing to get you every mile and every step of the way. I just feel like it'skind of an interesting blend of the old equipment and the new, but really whatit ultimately comes down to is having the mind and the heart to get you to the finishline.

Andrew:Yeah. Great reminder there, that you don't have to have the latest andgreatest. You don't have to have everything. Just because all your trainingbuddies all spent on X, Y, and Z and you haven't, well, guess what? You'restill a triathlete. You're still showing up to the races and doing the best youcan with the fitness that you've got. So good reminder there from you. Mark,anything to add from you, when it comes to the equipment that we are using,lessons we can learn from Mark Allen's experience?

Mark:Yeah, you know, I always tell people, “It's very easy to buy the fastest bikein the world. It's very hard to make that fast bike go fast.”

Andrew:Yeah. Oh, don't I know it.

Mark:You have to have the fitness. One of the biggest things to also keep in mindis, no matter what you have, make sure you try it out, make sure you dial itin. Because just because somebody else, a wetsuit works for them or a certainbike works for them, you’ve got to try it out and dial it in for yourself. Oneof the biggest mistakes that I made a few times was getting new equipment thatI thought was going to help me go faster in the race, and not giving it enoughtime to test it to realize “No, this was junk.” No matter what technologyyou’re going to go out there and buy, try it out and make sure it works. And asboth of you have already said, you don't need the best equipment in the worldto have the best experience. The very first bike that I used in Kona in 1982was a used bike that I got at a local bike shop. It was $500, and clearly therewas something wrong with it, because the derailleur broke and I had to dropout. But that's where I started. So again, you don't need to have the Ferrarito get on the freeway. Let's just put it that way.

Andrew:Two more questions and we'll shut it down today. The next thing I want to hearabout is nutrition. Mark, I don't remember which episode you were on, but therewas an episode you were on of the TriDot podcast, where you mentioned how thenumber one thing you wish you had in your career that the pros have now, is thelatest breakthroughs in nutrition products, the understanding of how to fuelour bodies better. You literally said, “These guys and gals racing in the profield now have so much more fuel in the tank than what we had back in ourtime.” So we know nutrition products, our understanding of how to fuel, hascome a long way. But even still, what are things that you know, and wisdom youhave from your time in the sport, that today's triathlete can learn from youwhen it comes to nutrition, Mark Allen?

Mark:Yeah, that first year when I was competing at the Ironman in 1982, the sportdrink was Gookinaid. I mean, do you want to drink something called Gookinaid?

Andrew:Gookinaid??

Mark:Yeah, so you can imagine what it did to your stomach besides turn it insideout. Gross, disgusting, right? That's just sort of the nutritional productsthat we used in races then, versus what is available now. That's one of thebiggest advances. Because the Ironman, the speed that people go in the Ironman,is partly related to fitness of course, but your fitness can only go so farbecause you can't get calories into the tank quick enough to sustain the effortthat you're going. So every athlete out there, especially at the top of therace, could go faster if they could just get calories in quicker. But there'san upper limit to that, and that upper limit nowadays is probably close totwice what we were able to get in. I was lucky to get in 250, 300 calories anhour. I heard that Christian Blummenfelt was getting in 500, 550, 600 caloriesan hour, and absorbing it. That's mind-boggling. That means you're not going tobe running on fumes the way we did toward the end of the marathon. You canactually sustain those high output levels on the bike AND continue to run agreat marathon, without getting sick to your stomach and throwing up all overthe course and all that kind of stuff. But sort of like the equipment, try itout in your training. No matter what it is, no matter what the guarantee of theproduct is from the company that makes the nutritional products, not everyproduct works for every single person. You just have to try it out in training,in conditions that are similar to what you're going to encounter in your race.

Andrew:Yeah, that’s a great point.

Mark:So if you have a hot race, try your nutrition out on hot training days. Anotherthing about trying it out is, a lot of people will try a product out, andthey'll take the bulk of it when they're stopped at a gas station to get wateror whatever, so your heart rate is 70. Then you get back on your bike, let'ssay you're testing this on a long bike ride, and you don't take in much whenyour heart rate is 150. Take in the stuff, try taking it when your heart rateis at race heart rate, and in weather that's very similar to what you're goingto encounter in your race, that will be the true test. And if it works intraining, then there's a chance it will work in the race too. But it's atrial-and-error thing, not everybody is going to follow the general guidelinesof how many calories per hour you can absorb. Some people will have more, someless. Some won't need as many per hour, they have smaller bodies, and somebodywho's heavier will need more per hour. The nutritional aspect of, the longerthe race, that's the hardest part to dial in, because it's so, so individual.

Andrew:Yeah, a great reminder, Mark, to make sure that our body gets along with ourGookinaid at pace, just like it does when we're stopped at the gas station. Andto your point about trying it in conditions that are similar to your race, I'vehad products that my body gets along with fine for an Olympic-distance event,but as soon as I try to go longer, having more and more of it, I startedfeeling a little sick to my stomach towards the end of that 50-mile ride,whereas it was just fine for that 20-mile ride. So yeah, make sure that yourbody can tolerate what you're trying to use for the duration, and in theconditions, and at the pace that you're going to have to use it for. Greatreminder there from Mark Allen. Kathleen, what do you tell your athletes whenit comes to nutrition? What is something that we can learn from you that istrue today, just like it was from your prime racing career?

Kathleen:Yes, as Mark alluded to, do not experiment with nutrition products on race day.I too was a victim of the ’83 Gookinaid.

Andrew:She remembers the year, Mark! The Gookinaid debacle!

Kathleen:We did not have sports drinks, we didn't have sports bars. I was kind ofmodeling my nutrition on the Tour de France nutrition, minus the cigarettes.They would have those little musette bags, and they'd have like a banana, a hamsandwich, an orange –

Andrew:Real food, yeah.

Kathleen:Real food, and then water. But you just couldn't get very many calories thatway at all. We had to petition Valerie Silk, I think it was back in 1982, tooffer Coca-Cola on the race course, and there was a big debate there. Anyway,we did not have much to pull from at all. Then something would come up – you'dget there to Kona in those early years, and there'd be some new product, andyou hadn't trained with it, and you hadn't planned on it. So I think you needto have your nutrition dialed in, just like you have everything else dialed in.And that's what a coach can do to help you dial that in. It has to be just asimportant as every other aspect of your training. Don’t experiment, don't leaveanything to chance, and train with it as you would on race day.

Andrew:I do want to note, ever since you said it, I've been on the search forGookinaid. You can no longer buy Gookinaid. I've yet to find what a bottle ofthis stuff looks like, but I have found, on eBay right now, you can buy asticker with the logo of Gookinaid E.R.G., the “De-Thirster”, is what it wascalled, the tagline. Gookinaid De-Thirster.

Mark:There you go, so it did exist. I wasn't lying.

Andrew:It did exist. Yeah, I'm still determined to find what a bottle of this stufflooked like. Well, from the both of you, in this entire conversation, justloads of great stories and great insight and wisdom. Timeless truths that applynow, like they did when you were racing in your prime, and I'm sure we'll apply20, 30, 40 years from now as well. I want to shut us down today – at the timewe're recording this, it's January 2024, so all of our listeners are eithergearing up for their 2024 season, or some of them overseas might be in themidst of their racing season. Either way, as we're all looking at our raceslate for 2024, close us out with whatever final words of wisdom you have forour athletes as they get ready for the 2024 triathlon seasons. Mark Allen,what's your final word of wisdom for our listeners to encourage us in our 2024racing?

Mark:Well, I think one of the most valuable things that I heard in this podcast iswhen Kathleen highlighted how her purpose and her reason for racing changed andevolved over several decades. I think that's such an important aspect to havingthis be a lifestyle. What is important for you that is going to bring youfulfillment from the sport? Last year may not be the same thing it's going toprovide you with that same sense of accomplishment, of fulfillment, that you'regoing to have this year. So be willing to adjust your “why”, and adjust thereasons and the things that you're trying to get out of the sport, and maybethe things that you're trying to give back by being in the sport. If you can dothat, it will be something that you're going to be involved with for many, manyyears, and every year will be satisfying and fulfilling. If you're 60, andyou're trying to compete with your 30-year-old self, you're always going tolose. So you have to evolve that reason and that purpose for being out thereand putting in training and being part of this community.

Andrew:Kathleen, shut us down today with your final encouraging words for our 2024race season.

Kathleen:Yes, I would love to see the sport grow continuously. I want this sport to behere for my grandchildren and their grandchildren's grandchildren. Part of thereason that I wanted to be a coach is to help the sport grow, inspire peopleto, if they're thinking about doing a triathlon, come on board, let's do it!And for those that are beginners, come on, let's make it happen this year. Ijust encourage people, like Mark said, to just love what you're doing. Nomatter what your goals are, find a purpose in it, and make this wonderful sportand lifestyle. I've been doing this for 43 years. My life feels like I have themost enormous joy basket of experiences, like every day. I'm so excited aboutlife, and I have been, and part of it is because I love the sport, what thiscommunity has done for my life and my friends. So I just encourage all of youtriathletes that are out there, having a great season, be safe, but alsoconsider making this sport part of your lifelong journey. I just know you willlove it and share it with others.

Cool down theme: Great set everyone! Let’s cool down.

Vanessa Ronksley: Guess what time it is, everyone! That's right,it's Coach Cooldown Tip Time, and I'm Vanessa, your Average Triathlete withElite-Level Enthusiasm! Our featured TriDot coach today is Greg McAuley. Greghas an abundance of triathlon experience, both in racing and coaching. He hasstepped on the podium 20 times, and has completed over 80 tris in the lastdecade. If you asked him in 2007 if this was what he would expect of himself inthe future, he would have been in complete disbelief, because at that time hewas living a very unhealthy lifestyle. Well, triathlon changed everything forGreg. The support, the camaraderie of the community, it all got him hooked, andnow he loves sharing everything he has learned with his athletes. His coachingspecialties include helping his athletes develop mental strength, everything todo with cycling, and simplifying the process, because triathlon, as you know,is quite complicated. Greg currently lives in Texas with his wife of 35 years.He has three adult children and three grandchildren. Welcome to the show, Greg!

Greg McAuley: Well, thanks. I'm humbled and excited to be here, and to be able toshare one or more coaching tips.

Vanessa:I am so excited to hear what you have to share with us today. What is your tipfor the day for all of us who are listening?

Greg:Tip of the day is to recall the past to get you through current tough times. Weall face situations, whether we're training, racing, in our everyday lives withour kids, with our parents, etcetera, to where we can be confused, we can beemotional, we can be in a state that we aren't comfortable. It could just be avery, very difficult situation that you're in, where you can't figure out howto get through that. When I'm in those situations, I try to recall a situationthat I've been in the past. Fortunately, being an older athlete, I can rely onmany more such situations than compared to my younger peers. Nonetheless, Ijust try to recall a similar situation, whether it's in training, or how did Ideal with the situation with one of my children. Granted, my children are allvery different, and their situations could be slightly different, butnevertheless, going back to that well of experience is one way to help methrough that next tough situation, or next similar tough situation. It happensfrequently when I'm racing. Last year I had a difficult time, for the firsttime in my triathlon career, open-water swimming competitively. I haddifficulty at Tri Waco, I had difficulty at 70.3 Ohio, and then mywell-chronicled experience at Kona. Interestingly enough, this tip that I'mgiving, that additional mental strength and recalling the situation I was inswimming in Lake Erie at 70.3 Ohio – what did I think about, what did I do, howdid I react, and how did I end up finishing the swim, albeit not necessarily intime? I was thinking about that and I said, “Well, that last half mile acrossthe swim finish at Kona can't be quite as bad as the situation that I was in at70.3 Ohio.” So being able to recall and say, “Well, I got through that, I canget through this,” then it's just additive over time. As you build thatportfolio of experience, you have more and more situations that you can fallback on, and compare and learn from. It's similar to lifting weights, the moreof those tough exercises that you go through mentally and emotionally, it helpsbuild mental strengths.

Vanessa:Yeah, yeah. I have a quick question for you, about what is actually goingthrough your mind when you know that the situation – like in your swim, forexample – is not going well. What is that thought that you focus on in yourmind, to get you through that in the moment? Because a lot of times, I findespecially in the swim, people start to panic, and you have to get your mindfocused on something. What is it that you do to get yourself out of thatsituation and propel yourself into thinking, “I can do this, let's get going”?What do you think?

Greg:Well, I'm taking a cue from Mark Allen that he is very keen on, and that istaking your thoughts away from the negative, or releasing those negativethoughts out of your mind, however you need to do that. In my case, the way Ido that is I just stop. I turn over my back – I survey the scene, make surenobody's swimming directly for me so I'm not going to interfere with somebodyelse's swim – and just try to relax, clear my mind, and just think aboutsomething else.  Sometimes I'll sing asong to myself, sometimes I will just think some goofy thought, other times Iwill just think about what kind of form I'm going to try to have the next tenstrokes, 20 strokes, etcetera, just to get my mind away from those negativethoughts that can quickly derail you.

Vanessa:Mm hmm, I love that so much. I think that that is really something that anyonecan implement.  It's not necessarilyputting something into your mind, but it's stopping what's already in yourmind. I think that's the trick to getting over anything difficult in our lives,is we have to first recognize that negative thought, and stop it. I love thatyou said that.  I'd never thought of itthat way before, stopping the negative, and then just allowing space in yourmind for whatever it is that will help you to get through that next phase.That's fabulous.

Greg:It's difficult to do. I went to TriDot Pool School after a couple of raceswhere I had difficulty on the open-water swim leg, and it was suggested I justdo sink-downs, or just exhale very quickly when I jump in the water.  That was another common thread betweenOhio.  I was jumping off either a dockand sinking down and going underwater and just thinking, “I have to swim likecrazy right off the bat,” and that was just the complete opposite of what Ishould have been doing.  That's anotheropportunity to think positive thoughts when you're doing that, when you jumpoff a dock. You're naturally going to slightly go underwater when you jump offa dock, especially if you're not wearing a wetsuit, but it's an opportunityjust to release, and then start your swim with a clear mind.

Outro:Thanks for joining us. Make sure to subscribe and share the TriDot podcast withyour triathlon crew. For more great tri content and community, connect with uson Facebook, YouTube, and Instagram. Ready to optimize your training? Head totridot.com and start your free trial today! TriDot – the obvious and automaticchoice for triathlon training.

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